Sibelius had many musical influences in his life, especially in his early years.

While Sibelius's music is as unique as any idiom to be found in the repertoire, which composer, do you suppose, had the MOST LASTING influence on his style? Wagner? Bruckner? Busoni? Someone else?

And, what composers after Sibelius do you think are the MOST influenced by Sibelius? This is obviously up for conjecture or, if you can quote specific instances in which a composer mentions his influence specifically, please share.

I can't help but think that it was not Bruckner or Busoni or Wagner who lays claim to the most lasting influence on Sibelius, rather - Beethoven.

Just think about it. His entire philosophy has Beethoven to the extreme written all over it. He strips away everything that is in the least way unnecessary, he takes little cells of themes that don't even sound like themes and brings them to the forefront, revolutionized symphonic thought once again - they're utterly similar in concept.

True, they are tonally nothing alike, but Sibelius sounds like nobody, basically. But structurally and philosophically, it's all Beethoven to the extreme.

That's my thought...

I think it depends which period we are talking about... in the early years he went through phases if influence from central European dance music (c. 1881–84), Viennese classics and Haydn (1884–86) and then Beethoven really cut in (1886 onwards). And Beethoven was there to stay, to be sure ('Finland is gaining its own Beethoven in Sibelius, having lost its own Mozart in Mielck' - as Axel Carpelan noted in 1900 [referring to Ernst Mielck, who had died a couple of years before - see threads passim). Don't forget Bach either, though maybe more on a conceptual level! Bruckner, during JS's studies abroad, was just about the final piece of the jigsaw. Wagner was maybe a piece that actually belongs to another jigsaw but you still try out in every available free space, just in case.

Busoni, nah... a great friend, but his works themselves were not really an influence.

I would have to agree with World Violist, I think that Beethoven loomed large increasingly as Sibelius developed. Also Palestrina, Lassus and the early English Reformation music, Tallis and Byrd.
Bruckner and Tchaikovsky were important influences early on. Later works show the influence of Debussy.

Composers most influenced by Sibelius? The list is larger than one might think. I would include Vagn Holmboe, Magnus Lindberg and Per Norgard. Certainly Roy Harris, Howard Hanson and John Harbison in America. As discussed in another thread, Sibelius became a cult figure in France during the seventies with names such as Pascal Dusapin and Tristan Murail. In Britain Sibelius influenced composers like Bax and Walton, Later he cast a spell on a whole new generation of British composers including Robert Simpson, Malcolm Arnold and Mark-Anthony Turnage. That doyen of modernists Peter Maxwell Davies shocked the musical establishment when he cited Sibelius as a major influence on his first symphony. I could go on.--kullervopete.

I will also throw my vote in for Beethoven. Specifically, Beethoven's attention to structure and transition, conciseness of thematic material, and how thematic material is (organically) woven into the texture, taking on the role of melody and accompaniment.

I am actually very heartened to see how many people are saying Beethoven. Believe it or not, I actually had him in mind when I made this thread, but I didn't spcifically mention him because I wanted to see if others would bring him up!

I could not agree more. I think Sibelius is most influenced by Beethoven. I think this influence has more to do with structure and form over texture. With his astounding attention to detail and form, Beethoven revolutionized the symphony like no one before him. Sibelius revolutionized the symphony even further. I therefore consider Beethoven the greatest symphonist of the 19th century and Sibelius the greatest of the 20th.

In terms of texture and sound world, Sibelius is so unique...so singular...that I find it impossible to say Sibelius sounds like {insert composer here}. A true testament to his originality.

I definitely see Sibelius's influence in the music of Bax. However, Bax tends to bore me. He does have very Sibelian-sounding moments, but his lack of taught structure loses my interest. It just becomes sound. (I am also no big fan of Debussy for this very reason.)

I also hear some Sibelius in Samuel Barber. I'd have to think Barber was an admirer of Sibelius.

You are right about Barber. I seem to recall that Barber asked Sibelius for advice when he was about to start on his violin concerto. I think that Sibelius would have admired much of Barbers music. Think of the intensity of the strings in the famous 'Adagio'. Barbers first symphony in one movement was surely influenced by Sibelius seventh.--kullervopete.

kullervopete wrote:

As discussed in another thread, Sibelius became a cult figure in France during the seventies with names such as Pascal Dusapin and Tristan Murail.

The Spectral school being a school for second fiddles, one fails to see why their upholding of Sibelius should be flattering to Sibelius fans...

two-tone wrote:

kullervopete wrote: As discussed in another thread, Sibelius became a cult figure in France during the seventies with names such as Pascal Dusapin and Tristan Murail. The Spectral school being a school for second fiddles, one fails to see why their upholding of Sibelius should be flattering to Sibelius fans...

A big welcome to the forum two-tone.

I don't really hold any brief for the 'Spectral' school of composers, but as a fan of Sibelius if we are discussing Sibelius's influence on contemporary music then clearly in France, Sibelius became something of a cult figure during the 1970's [remember that it was in France that Sibelius was once dubbed 'The worlds worst composer'] I rejoice that a new generation of French musicians broke away from the shackles of Boulez and his ilk and embraced the music of the Finnish master.--kp

Listening to the symphonies of Edmund Rubbra, the presence of Sibelius is very strongly felt, but never enough to obscure his own highly unique voice. In fact, I can also feel the distinct influence of Gustav Mahler (!) in several of his works as well, often in the same work, which is most surprising to me. For example, the slow movement of Rubbra's Sixth carries quite strong links to the slow movements of both Sibelius' Third and Mahler's own Sixth symphonies, yet still it is entirely unique. It is a most intriguing stylistic synthesis that I think deserves to be much more often-heard in this day and age. He used to be quite popular actually, if memory serves, during the fifties and such... (I read about it, by the way, I wasn't around in the fifties)

The influence of Sibelius can be felt of course in many British composers of the period from Bax, Moeran, Walton, Havergal Brian, Vaughan Williams, Boughton, Robert Simpson, Tippett and Arnold. Its interesting that you detect the influence of both Sibelius and Mahler in Rubbra's Symphonic work. Certainly both composers also influenced Malcolm Arnold and Benjamin Frankel. Of course during the 1930's through to the 40's Sibelius was revered in Britain, Mahler on the other hand had fewer champions at this time and his music was difficult to mount.

I mentioned Benjamin Frankel, this neglected British composer lit a torch for Sibelius during the dark days of the 1950's and 60's when Sibelius was under attack form an elite group of critics. His talk 'Sibelius and his critics' was broadcast in 1961 on the BBC. A few years back I managed to get hold of a transcript and it was printed in the UK Sibelius Society Newsletter. I have a box set of Frankels eight Symphonies and as with Rubbra's they are worth exploring.--kp

kullervopete wrote:

His talk 'Sibelius and his critics' was broadcast in 1961 on the BBC. A few years back I managed to get hold of a transcript and it was printed in the UK Sibelius Society Newsletter.

I would absolutely love to read that, kullervopete (or should I say, Mr. Guest Conductor? ), if you could possilby send that to me or even post it somewhere on the forum (legality permitting), that would be great.

I am a fan of old horror movies and Frankel wrote the great score for Hammer's 'Curse of the Werewolf' with Oliver Reed.

Frankel's 'Werewolf' score is on Naxos...it's a great work.

I gotta hear his symphonies. He was a fan of Sibelius...OK, I REALLY like him now.

Yes, 'The curse of the Werewolf', I saw it when it first came out [1960] Frankel started off in light music including Jazz Piano. He wrote over 100 scores for the Cinema. Many fine composers needed these 'bread and butter' jobs!

It was in the last 14 years of his life that Frankel embarked on his eight Symphonies. Although Mahler and Sibelius were formative influences, Frankel adopted Schoenberg's 12 note serial technique but his music remained accessible and melodic.-kp

The influence of Sibelius on Canadian composers is pervasive. His works were first performed here in 1909, and championed by the composers and teachers who dominated the first half of the 20th century in this country. The mythological and landscape imagery associated with Sibelius is so much akin to our own that most Canadians instinctively respond to Sibelius as “sounding right”.

Phil Paine wrote:

The influence of Sibelius on Canadian composers is pervasive. His works were first performed here in 1909, and championed by the composers and teachers who dominated the first half of the 20th century in this country. The mythological and landscape imagery associated with Sibelius is so much akin to our own that most Canadians instinctively respond to Sibelius as “sounding right”.

Welcome to the forum Phil, great to learn of the continued popularity of Sibelius in Canada. Interesting that his works were performed as far back as 1909. Sibelius has probably been admired in countries such as Canada and Scotland because of his 'open-air' style and epic sweep, but its great that his music now seems to be taking hold in Countries that previously choose to ignore him.--kp