I have an interesting comment. If Sibelius had put his wonderful themes from his tone poems into Symphonies instead. Would it have increase his popularity today? This is a viable question given the rise in Mahler, who did incorperate early tone-poems and his lieder into his Symphonies.

An interesting thought… given the modern trend to give complete cycles of everybody's symphonies (well, except Segerstam's - I think he's up to about 165 now [sorry, arenan!]) it might at least have resulted in more performances.

Indeed there was some overlap at the conceptual stage: e.g. themes that ended up in the Sixth were planned for a tone poem to be called Kuutar (The Moon Goddess). All the same, I do believe that Sibelius's themes are exquisitely well tailored to their context. If he had used the tone poem themes in symphonies, I'm sure he would have reworked them substantially.

Zauberberg, do I understand correctly that you prefer the Tone-poem themes to the Symphonic ones?

If this is indeed the case, could you elaborate a little? Which tone-poem themes are your favourites? Which symphonic themes do you find ineffective? ("Ineffective" is a nice way of saying "boring")

In general, given the way Sibelius focuses on motivic development and unity in his symphonies, "Big Tunes" do not necessarily support this style of composition. Take for example the "Big Tune" in the 4th mvmt of the 1st Symphony or the analogous melody (the "Chorale") in the 4th mvmt of the 2nd Symphony. These are gorgeous melodies no doubt, but they are stated and then restated... and that's about it, insofar as we compare them to his later Symphonic Finale efforts.

I haven't heard enough of the tone-poems to know for sure. The point I was trying to make was that if Sibelius had written 14 Symphonies as opposed to 7, because he had put his tone-poem themes in symphonies, prehaps he would be even more famous then Gustav Mahler. It is useless to debate weather or not he could have, or that his tone-poem themes are different as you did. All Sibelius would have needed to do is introduced hints of the theme (melody), an then use the 'whole' theme in the first climax of the movement. Sibelius simply thought his themes in tone-poems belonged in tone-poems. Music is too abstract to say they couldn't have been used in his symphonies instead.

I have covered some of this ground before but has we are on the subject of Tone Poems and Symphonies, I will say this : Some noted experts have considered a number of the Tone Poems to be Fully fledged Symphonies and in one case vice versa.
Harold Truscott was convinced that Pohjola's Daughter was a Symphony and both Arnold Whittall and Wilfred Mellers are on record in considering that Tapiola is the Eighth Symphony.
At one level it is puzzling that Sibelius could make the remark 'Since Beethoven's time all so called Symphonies with the exeption of Brahms have been Symphonic Poems'. For Sibelius went on to create a series of the most Symphonic of 'Tone Poems'. Several commentators including Ernest Newman and Aaron Copland have contended that the Seventh Symphony is in fact a Symphonic Poem. This great work was indeed first performed under the title 'Fantasia Sinfonica', just a label of course but their can be little doubt that Sibelius's Tone Poems are the most Symphonic among all the great masters of the genre.--kullervopete.

kullervopete wrote:

Harold Truscott was convinced that Pohjola's Daughter was a Symphony and both Arnold Whittall and Wilfred Mellers are on record in considering that Tapiola is the Eighth Symphony.

Not knowing who these gentlemen are, their backgrounds in music etc., I will not presume to question their knowledge of these works or of Symphonies as a genre. But I will rebut with these 2 points:

1. In General, a symphony does not contain extra-musical allusions, and tone-poems do not strive for the formal breadth and motivic development that symphonies explore. When there is a cross-over of these elements, this intention of creating a program-symphony is usually quite clear, as in Symphonie Fantastique
   
2. In Sibelius' output, his tone-poems have programs, his symphonies do not. Certainly, in his tone-poems (Especially Tapiola), Sibelius uses similar mechanisms of motivic transformation and development, and may even use variations of symphonic/sonata forms.

... and therefore, to come to the point of my argument ...

kullervopete wrote:

Several commentators including Ernest Newman and Aaron Copland have contended that the Seventh Symphony is in fact a Symphonic Poem.

Having said what I said, and acknowledging the possible crossover of elements even in Sibelius' Symphonies and tone-poems, I think that there is a very thick dividing line between Sibelius' ...

Symphonies
--------------------------
Tone-poems

And while Tapiola and the 7th are similar in length, written around the same time and are both in one movement, in my mind they are the ultimate expression of the difference between a tone-poem and a symphony.

Thankyou for a most interesting reply, just for the record --Arnold Whittall is Professor Emeritus of music theory and analysis at Kings College, London. He remains active as a lecturer, reviewer and concert presenter and has written widely on 19th and 20th century music, including a chapter on the later Symphonies of Sibelius in The Cambridge Companion To Sibelius [2004]
Harold truscott [1914-1992] was a British composer. pianist, broadcaster and writer on music. He championed many unfashionable composers including Franz Schmidt, Granville Bantock and Hans Pfitzner. He was Sibelian of great insight and contributed a chapter on Sibelius in 'The Symphony' Elgar to the present day [Pelican books, editor Robert Simpson] and also an interesting contribution in The UK Sibelius Society publication 'The Forests Mighty God', first published in 'The Listener' 1963.
Wilfred Mellers born 1914 is an English music critic, musicologist and composer. From 1964 to 1981 he was founding Professor and head of music at the University of York. Now in his 93rd year he has been described as the most significant writer on music in the last 50 years.

With regard to programme music, I think that Liszt first used the term in the 1840's. With Beethoven of course as you infer, the Symphony was concerned with notions of breadth and monumentality, aiming at motivic development and organic coesion. But for me Sibelius's Tone Poems do frequently seem to blur the distinction between Symphonic Poem and Symphony. Sibelius described his 6th as above all a Poem and he expressed doubts about the very term 'Symphony'.
Looking at his sketches for what would eventually become Symphonies 5, 6 and 7 plus Tapiola, Sibelius was moving ever closer to the concept of 'Fantasia' Many of the Tone Poems do not have a specific programme and in a work like En Saga, he described it as a state of mind. Many of the Symphonies are bound up with facinating remarks, from the Swan hymn in No. 5 to the seventh were in a sketch Sibelius marks a passage 'The moon seen through storm clouds'. Sibelius was of course always at pains in describing his Symphonies as absolute music with no literary basis, and he should know.--kullervopete.

'…that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet'

(Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet)

Symphony, tone poem, call them what you will; the music remains the same and that's what we all enjoy - isn't it?

kullervopete wrote:

... the seventh were in a sketch Sibelius marks a passage 'The moon seen through storm clouds'.

Yes, I forgot about that one. It's the minore return of the "Aino" trombone theme, overtop of chromatic rising and falling string passages.

excellent quote Andrew, yes the music is what we all enjoy, but I would contend that the more that we can know about a rose then the greater our enjoyment of its wonder. This discussion on the Tone Poems and Symphonies is of course just one facet of our continuing quest to fathom some of the creative secrets of a musical genius. You of course have recently finished a superb book on Sibelius and his music, but I am reminded of a remark that the master himself once made 'In reality one can say extremely little in words about the essential nature of music'. But I would think that some of us in this forum will continue to try.--kullervopete.

kullervopete wrote:

'In reality one can say extremely little in words about the essential nature of music'. But I would think that some of us in this forum will continue to try.

I for one am up for that challenge!

As for the first quote, I am reminded of Hermann Hesse's character from Steppenwolf, Pablo, the jazz saxophonist. At one point, after Harry listens to him play and wants to "talk music", Pablo expresses the opinion that there is no point in talking about music, that music speaks for itself.

____________________________________________
Another wonderful thing about this novel is Hesse's constant slandering of Brahms and preference of Mozart. Genius.

Ha! I must re-read Steppenwolf.
At least one could not accuse the mature Sibelius of being a hairy beast.

It seems to me as though the tone poems' themes are somewhat more... "abstract?"... than the symphonic themes, generally speaking. I mean, you take stuff like the themes of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 7th symphonies and compare them with Night-ride and Sunrise, The Oceanides, Tapiola, even Pohjola's Daughter, and the symphonic themes are a bit more distinguishable within their development, whist the tone poems' themes are swept up in the body of the poem.

Those are my thoughts just now... please correct me if there are any faults.

I'm just now finding this thread...interesting commentary!

I agree with Kurki that there is a distinct line between Sibbe's tone poems and symphonies, but I agree with Pete thatthere is overlap. In other words, I think there is truth to both arguents.

Many of Sibbe's tone poems are described as symphonies: Pohjola's Daughter and Tapiola spring to mind. Even the Lemminkainen Legends are though of as a complete, 4 movement symphony. And Kullervo...symphony number 0 or a massive tone poem?

These works may be "symphonic" in scope (Kullervo, Lemminkainen) or in their mastery of musical form (Pohjola, Taiola), but I certainly refrain from thinking of them as symphonies proper for two main reasons:

1. Sibelius's tone poems are all programmatic. Each of his 7 symphonies are pure, abstract music.

2. Sibelius only numbered 7 symphonies. I take him at his word. A ardent reviser and re-thinker like Sibelius had ample opportunity to recatagorize works if he wanted to. He did it at least once when Fantasia sinfonica became the 7th. But Tapiola remained Tapiola. Had it really been a symphony, wouldn't Sibelius have given it the same consideration and treatment as his Fantasia sinfonica?

Sibelius played with the order fo the two central movements of Lemmenkainen, so he was certainly re-thinking this work at some point. He could have numbered a symphony if he wanted, but never did. It is, I suppose, a suite.

And Kullervo? I think of it as a massive tone poem in 5 movements. I cannot consider it a symphony, even if you pair it with the 1st and the 2nd. There is a program and there is a lack of symphonic concision (even his first two numbered symphonies are more direct in utterance than the sprawlingly massive Kullervo). Judging by Sibelius's own quotes about the inner workings of a symphony, how could Kullervo fit this mold. In fact, Kullervo fit's Mahler's model of a symphony better than Sibbe's...Kullervo embraces just about everything!

Long story short, some of his tone poems can be symphonic is scopre or form, but they are still tone poems. I suppose this is where the line gets blurry. But at the end of the day, Sibelius only numbered 7, and we should take him at his word.

I see Kullervo as a fully fledged symphony and as Tapkaara hints, it is as much a symphony as Mahlers 'Resurrection'.

In my view even if Sibelius had not written any symphonies, his series of Tone Poems from En Saga to Tapiola would entitle him to a place amongst the greatest masters of the orchestra.

Sibelius probably more than anyone else resuscitated the symphony from its perilous decline at the turn of the 19th Century into a music fully worthy of the great classical masters of the past. But significantly he also wrote a series of Symphonic Poems that by reason of their economy of material, cogent argument and motific rigour brought the genre ever closer to the classical symphony.

Sibelius began to wonder if the name 'symphony' had harmed his music and he began to think that the concept must be expanded. The idea of 'Orchestral Fantasy's' exercised his mind for a number of years, this might give him the freedom to fuse together the tone poem with its concern for pictorial image and story telling within the severity of style and profound logic of the symphony. In the end he never abandoned the title 'symphony' although he came close with the Seventh.--kp

kullervopete wrote:

In my view even if Sibelius had not written any symphonies, his series of Tone Poems from En Saga to Tapiola would entitle him to a place amongst the greatest masters of the orchestra.

I could not agree more. I think Sibelius is one of the most important composers of the 20th century because he was one of the best symphonists (if not the best) and certainly the greatest tone poet EVER.

When one thinks of the tone poem, who comes to mind? Liszt (after all...he "invented" the genre), R. Strauss, Debussy and Dvorak probably. Perhaps Rimsky-Korsakov. But Sibelius was certainly the "aristocrat" of tone poems, as well as symphonies!

Sibbe brings a level of sophistication to his tone poems that the other composers above often lack, in my opinion. Many could be considered mini-symphonies, even. This is due to Sibbe's complete mastery of organic musical form. Sibbe takes the tone poem and makes it sound more like a full, perfected symphonic work as opposed to a glitzy overture. (Not that there is anything wrong with glitzy overtures!) But his tone poems exist on a more divine level than anyone else's.

Ah, Liszt... I keep trying with his symphonic poems, and I admit that they are very skilful in some ways, but... well. am I alone in finding them just a tiny bit bland and uninspiring? Whenever I listen to them, I never feel that I want to repeat the experience.

Quite the opposite with Sibb, of course (and with many others!).

I'm with you there, 100% Andrew. Well, maybe 99%. I really like the Battle of the Huns. That is his most exciting tone poem, I believe, and I can listen to it without being bored. Same thing with R. Strauss. I enjoy Also Sprach...but everything else, I still struggle with.

But there is such mystery and depth to Sibelius's tone poems that make me keep coming back to them time and again. If tone poems are really poetry, Sibelius was a MASTER poet!!