First of all, has anyone seen the website called the Flying Inkpot? It contains descriptions and some reviews of Sibelius CDs and it's all rather well done, I think. You can check out the site at

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Anyway, there is a review of Vanska's recording of the 5th Symphony. At the end of the review someone named Charles wrote comment to which no one replied. I thought the comment was interesting and I reproduce it here:

Point of interest. Vanska has placed the chords EXACTLY as written. All of the rests are placed in tempo (which some conductors like to randomly place them when they see fit) and at their exact rhythmic values. How would I know this? In the recapitulation of the Swan Hymn, the tempo marking is 'Un pochettino largamente.' This section is in 3/2, all the way up to the final measure. A lot of conductors like to make this passage much slower, as it would give more forward momentum, rhythmically and harmonically. Sibelius has 2 more gradual adjustments in tempo before the trumpets come in. When the trumpets finally do, it's slower than when the oboes had the theme. The tempo does pick up at 'Un pochettino stretto,' right when the timpani accents the trumpets, with the trombones playing as an answer to the trumpets. If you count in 3/2 from here to the end (each note of the theme = 1 beat), you'll find that Vanska does space the final 6 chords out as it's written in the score. I hope someone will verify me on this.

Do any of our resident experts have further insight into this?

The poster on the inkpot is correct about the tempo fluctuations that Sibelius writes in the score. He is also correct in saying that Vänskä places the chords exactly, while some other conductors take some lisence with their placements.

I would tend to want to place them exactly, first of all because Sibelius spaced them out carefully with written-out rests and not "pauses" and secondly because of the genesis of this idea. In the first version, the chords are long with a constant, unbreaking backdrop of tremolo in the strings. In this original context, it would not make sense to space them out in any other way than Sibelius has written, and I carry this idea through into the final version as well.

Thanks Kurki, I figured that our resident conductor would have some insight into this.

I suppose Vanska is "bang on" in his interpretion of the score...does anyone have an opinion of a conductor who is "way off" in this?

Karajan would be a perfect example (it pains me to admit).
And indeed most of the conductors of an older generation. For instance, in the Baribirolli/Hallé (EMI stereo) version, the chords are way too staccato and the last two much too close together.

The importance of accurately observing the rests [and indeed note values] applies in many other works too - Karelia Ballade, Kullervo, etc etc. I find it depressing that we even have to debate this - why can't people just follow the score? On a mathematical forum would people really debate whether or not 1+1=2? Maybe so....?

As a simple music lover, I can only go off my own ears and instinct in these matters. Kurki is correct regarding the silences between the chords at the end. There are no fermatas, everything is printed in tempo. In some performances the final six hammar blows seem to close together and matter of fact. Karajan is especially cowardly here. Listening to Celebidache, the silences seem as important as the chords. Its interesting that Sibelius told Jussi Jalas that the tempo changes indicated in his scores should be so slight that people are hardly aware of them. In Segerstams Helsinki P. O. fifth symphony finale, he speeds up the gears far to much during the final page. Vanska learnt so much of course when he studied and recorded the original version. The Finnish maestro tell us that 'the tradition is to play the Pocchettino Largamente [Fig.N. bars407ff] very broad and loud, but it is 'Un Pocchettino'. this was a turning point for Vanska 'The triplets in the original version have to go smoothly together with the new tempo, so why do we do so so much in the final version?' he then realised the score said 'Pocchettino' and he wonders why everything in the Finnish tradition is extreem. 'We should follow what the composer wrote more closely'.--kp

I've never seen the score for the 5th symphony, so this is all very enlightening.

I suppose this comes back around to our other discussions in the past regarding conductors and how much liberty they should be allowed to take when "interpreting" a score.

I'm going to revisit Vanska's 5th and pay extra attention to his reading of the hammer blows versus other recordings I own. I'll see how I feel about all of this.