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Tapkaara Soloist


Joined: 04 Jan 2007 Posts: 725 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Renaissance polyphony |
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On Wikipedia, there is the line:
"Sibelius studied Renaissance polyphony, as did his contemporary, the Danish composer Carl Nielsen, and Sibelius' music often reflects the influence of this early music."
I also seem to recall reading about this from other sources. (You cannot always trust Wikipedia.)
Would anyone who has some insight into this care to elaborate? _________________ "Music is not philosophy."
-- Akira Ifukube
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Kurkikohtaus Site Admin


Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 930 Location: Praha, CZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Certainly the modal and free-polyphonic character of the 6th Symphony would qualify here, but I have not studied the 6th at all, quite frankly, and therefore can't elaborate much on exactly what Sibelius is doing (on a technical level) in that piece. |
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kullervopete Conductor in Residence


Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 1121 Location: Bury Lancs UK
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Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Sibelius did have a great love for the Italian Renaissance masters such as Palestrina, Lassus and Monteverdi. Also a profound admiration for English Reformation music including Tallis amd Byrd. This is clearly revealed in the 6th and 7th symphonies. In his early college studies with Martin Wegelius, Sibelius got to explore the early renaissance masters and they became deeply etched in his spirit.--kullervopete. _________________ Peter Frankland |
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Tapkaara Soloist


Joined: 04 Jan 2007 Posts: 725 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I was aware of Sibelius's admiration for Palestrina.
I was also aware of these "renaissance connections" to the 6th and 7th Symphonies.
Does this stand out in any other works? _________________ "Music is not philosophy."
-- Akira Ifukube
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Kurkikohtaus Site Admin


Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 930 Location: Praha, CZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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Not necessarily akin to Renaissance polyphony, but the latter part of the 2nd movement of the Karelia suite (the string chorale) has always had an "ancient" feeling for me. Come to think of it, the second violins do boast a small one-bar Renaissance figure at the phrase cadences... |
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Tapkaara Soloist


Joined: 04 Jan 2007 Posts: 725 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Interesting point, Kurki, on the "ancient" sounds of Sibelius's music.
KULLERVO sounds ancient to most people's ears, I'm sure, for obvious reasons.
There's a lot of "ancient" sound in THE TEMPEST to my ears, as well. Probably in other pieces too, but I'd have to think about which. _________________ "Music is not philosophy."
-- Akira Ifukube
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Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I'd say that many - or rather most - of the 'ancient' sounds (especially in works such as Kullervo) come more from Karelianism and the runic tradition than from Palestrina and chums. But certainly Renaissance music was of interest to Sibelius and, as noted by learned colleagues above, works such as the Sixth Symphony show this quite clearly. _________________
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Tapkaara Soloist


Joined: 04 Jan 2007 Posts: 725 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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I think anyone can hear something "ancient" in any of the tone poems based on the KALEVALA.
The 6th Symph. does indeed sound like something from the distant past. I'm always reminded of a loney cathedral by this symphony. _________________ "Music is not philosophy."
-- Akira Ifukube
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Harri M Orchestra Member - Section Leader


Joined: 12 Dec 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Tampere, Finland
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Look how the beginnings of 2nd and 3rd symphonies are written. They start from the middle of bar. (same thing in at least Aida by Verdi all the time) This is maybe more relating to baroque. I have allways been wondering what he wants to say by that.
Listen Karelia Music ( where Karelia suite is from) ODE 913-2. There Sibb imitates kalevala singing, renaissance music and uses The Finnish National Anthem! The original form of Ballade includes singer. I am not sure, but I think it was in Levas`s book that as old man Sibb destroyed the score because of the use of the Anthem.
Listen the same cd, Press Celebration Music: Song of Väinämöinen for Kaleva singing style, and The Finns are Baptised for renaissance style and S-motif. Hear how the Finns "want" to be baptisted. This movement allways makes my still excisting hair get up. ( excuses for my bad english) Last movement is "Finland Awakes". |
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kullervopete Conductor in Residence


Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 1121 Location: Bury Lancs UK
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Facinating stuff Harri.
'Ancient' sound, perhaps. I would prefer 'Primeval' and we certainly feel this in many works from En Saga to Tapiola.
Much of Sibelius's music evinces a modal inflection. Even as early as the D Minor Allegro [1889] which combines Aeolian and Dorian modal elements. But when we talk about Sibelius's admiration for the Italian Rennaisance masters, in no way is Sibelius simply looking back to the 16th century, works such as the sixth symphony reveal a powerful and essentially modern outlook.--kullervopete. _________________ Peter Frankland |
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Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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I agree with kullervopete (essentially modern outlook despite the admiration for Italian Renaissance masters) and the point about modal music is also well worth remembering!
Harri M mentions that the Second and Third Symphonies start halfway through the bar. Indeed - but at the première of No.2, it didn't: between first performance and publication, Sibelius changed it around so it starts after the second beat rather than the down-beat. In the process he made a few other metrical changes and cut out two bars.
This and other intriguing changes are discussed in the notes to Breitkopf's JSW edition of this symphony. The score used at the première - now fire-damaged (not from the fireplace at Ainola this time) is in the Turku Sibelius Museum. _________________
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World Violist Concertmaster


Joined: 08 Jan 2008 Posts: 403
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Doesn't the Third symphony have some little modal things in there (principally the f-sharp motif throughout)? |
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