Has anyone heard the Ormandy / Philadelphia version?

Ormandy adds trumpet to the violins, with Gil Johnson's big vibrato (as documented elsewhere by dj).

Listen to a clip

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from Wikipedia.

Compare it to

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clip, Vanska / Lahti.

Actually I haven't heard this particular recording, but it is quite a common BAD habit to add some sort of brass here - sometimes trumpet, sometimes horn - even among conductors who ought to know better, dating back at least to Koussevitzky in 1933 and especially prevalent in Russian (or Russian-trained) conductors since then.

I would stress that I regard it as a wholly unnecessary, at best irritating and at worst very tasteless indulgence to mess with Sibelius's careful scoring in this way. The end of this symphony cost him particular sweat and tears, and I have yet to hear a good reason why his clear wishes should not be respected.

And this is sadly not the only example of conductors interfering with his work (not just in this symphony)... maybe we could start a list of these deadly sins? Name and shame those who commit them?

The above post by andrew b is hereby forever immortalized as the 500th post at the Sibelius Forum.
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I realize that I didn't mention the fact that I also thought it was terrible... and not just the trumpet addition, the whole thing just sounds wrong. From andrew b's list of words I choose "tasteless".

I guess this idea of additions and changes was universally popularized and perhaps even "sanctified" by Wagner, who ruthlessly messed with everybody's music, including Beethoven's.

Andrew b, if you do know of more such Sibelius rapings, I would love to know some details!

does this mean y'all don't care for the beecham/goossens reworking of 'messiah'?

i love it!

i mostly would agree w/you, though. leave sibelius alone and hear what it says.

dj

Yep, glad to oblige... here are some for starters.

(I'll ignore messing with dynamics or phrasing for now, and concentrate on actual changes to the notes).

1. Finlandia
In the past few decades virtually every Finnish conductor has transgressed except for Jussi Jalas and Osmo Vänskä, who play it as written. It's in the main Allegro, 4 bars after F. Listen to the horns shooting upwards in the last two notes of the phrase - harmonically OK and in its way a nice 'effect' but NOT what Sibelius wrote (and it makes the chord sound thin, to my ears).

2. Finlandia
A few bars later (4 before G ff): Ashkenazy alters the triangle rhythm: instead of even minims, he plays three crochets plus rest [repeated] over these four bars.

3. Symphony No.2
The famous 'Koussvitzky ending': adapting the timpani part (in some performances also double basses) thoughout the coda. Sibelius RELUCTANTLY allowed Koussevitzky to do this, but it has become a habit for quite a few conductors today - especially in England where, perhaps following the lead of the old Anthony Collins recordings, it has been done by e.g. Mackerras and (in concert) Handley.

4. Symphony No.1
I've lost cout of the number of conductors - including some great names - who can't leave the score alone. The usual transgression is to put the violins up an octave at various places in the first movement and, especially, the finale. Occasionally one hears the final chords of the first movement played by harp alone, without the string pizzicato. Why?


No doubt more such cases will occur to me later...

Interesting examples, I have noticed the horn example in Finlandia but the rest are new to me.

Speaking as a conductor, I simply cannot imagine doing this to Sibelius or any other composer for that matter. I simply would not have the courage to change something, as my goal has always been to take the score and do my best to present it as the composer intended it to be.

Very often, I find myself against the orchestra in this regard. There are many such "traditions" in Dvorak... I always take his scores literally, and very often, musicians tell me in rehearsal that this is "not the way it is played"... or that "other conductors do it this way"...

My answer:

Fortunately for Dvorak, I couldn't care less what other conductors have done.

As a musician, I think, and I know, that also this horn example is propably more a musicians than a conductor`s decicion. Usually they don`t complain.

In Ormandy's recording of Finlandia, he's constantly playing around with the scoring. One instance that really stands out to me is during the strings' second iteration of the Hymn: he has the first violins jump an octave, thus making the whole phrase sound rather tinny and strained to my mind. He adds some brass in other places too, I think... I don't have this recording with me at the moment.

I haven't played that one for many years - mostly because of the issues you mention. I just have a hard time with people who mess around with scoring... might be OK as the soundtrack of a Tom & Jerry cartoon but (for me at least) no place for it in the real world!