And I would add that Finnish performers have an innate familiarity with the rhythms of Finnish - also finlandsvensk - poetry and speech. The stress patterns and accentuation are subtly different when Finns perform Sibelius and that helps to make the result tougher, more sharply defined in character.

I believe it was Robert Layton who coined the phrase (regarding Karajan's DG recording of the Fourth Symphony, here paraphrased as I am still travelling without reference source) that it was like regarding the harshness of a Finnish landscape from the comfort of a well-heated limousine. Although RL later retracted that view, I think it applies to some extent to most non-native performances of Sibelius.

Does that make 'international' performances worse than 'domestic' ones? I think not (at least not as long as they are true to the idiom, and here I thoroughly agree with Kullervopete's honourable mention of Koussevitzky, Karajan, Barbirolli, Davis and the others). But there is an appreciable difference.

I take Harri M's point about Finlandia of course. British orchestra's have a special affinity with Elgar whose Pomp and Circumstance march 'Land of hope and glory' expresses similar sentiments.
I also have a great admiration for Osmo Vanska, having heard the maestro conduct all seven symphonies in Lahti. Vanska probably more than any other Sibelius conductor keeps to the score, but for me the first movement of No.1 still seems terribly rushed. Now Barbirolli is no slouch in this symphony but he manages to bring what I can only describe as an 'Aristocratic' quality to this music.--kullervopete.

Timings can be very misleading, I think... purely judged on the stopwatch, Barbirolli actually posted the slowest time I have ever heard (12 minutes in the EMI/Hallé version) for the first movement of No.1, despite despatching the clarinet intro in about 1'05 (some 30 seconds faster than some). And yet he controlled the rhythm and pulse so well that it never sounds that slow. A fine achievement. (And yes, I know that he slowed down in his old age!)

Kullervopete, how do you find Anthony Collins's version of this movement? It is at least as fast as Osmo Vänskä's (faster on the stopwatch because he relaxes less for the second group).

As for me, I wouldn't want to be without any of these three - Barbirolli, Collins, Vänskä - plus a few other besides.

A strange thing I have observed in some concert performances: conductors start the Allegro energico at a rather, er, plodding speed, but by the time they reach the recapitulation they have gathered pace quite markedly. I suppose the music gravitates to its own tempo giusto... so one wonders why they don't start off at the faster speed to begin with.

You have certainly got me thinking Andrew. Both Collins and Vanska are pretty fast in the opening movement of No.1 and for that matter the entire symphony. I have just compared both Vanska and Collins in the first movement. Vanska takes 9'-42
unfortunatly my LP of Collins does not give the timings, but although Collins drives the music hard, aided by prominent Timpani, I still find moments of real stillness which I dont get with Vanska. I think that Vanska's performance in Lahti in 2005 may have been more hard driven than his recording!

I have compared a few first symphonies from a number of fine Sibelians, just out of curiosity to compare timings.

Vanska : 9'-42 Opening --- 35'-04 overall Lahti S O
Barbirolli : 12'-06 ---- 41'-08 Halle
Sanderling : 11'-08 ----- 39'-31 Berlin S O
Stokowski : 10'-40 ------ 35'-76 Nat. P O
Ormandy : 11'-19 ---- 39' Philadelphia
Segerstam : 11'13 ----- 38'-04 Helsinki P O
Bernstein : 11'56 ----- 40'-39 VPO
Karajan : 10'-27 ----- 37'-84 BPO
Maazel : 10'-40 ------ 34'75 VPO

So Barbirolli is slowest overall at 41'-08 but what a surprise with Stokowski bucking the age factor at 94 years of age with 35'-76
only 72 seconds longer than Vanska! -- Ormandy, Segerstam and Sanderling very much level pegging. As to be expected Bernstein at 40'-39 hot on Barbirolli's trail. But the big surprise is Maazel clocking in at 34'-35, quicker even than Vanska. These timings are of course no guide to overall performance.--kullervopete.

From memory (I'll be back home on Wednesday!) Collins takes around 9'19 over the first movement. But I think we are in agreement that the stopwatch is a treacherous guide!

Bear in mind that some record companies (not BIS) foolishly include the pauses in their track times, which renders comparisons even less useful. And many companies, even today, have a thoroughly unmusical approach to pauses anyway - in general much too short. At least the odious practice of cutting short the reverb on the last chord is slightly less common than it used to be.

kullervopete, your list is quite interesting... but if we are discussing the relative speeds at which conductors take the 1st mvmt of the 1st symphony, we really need to "start the virtual stopwatch" after the clarinet solo, I think that would give a more relevant picture.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually asking you or anyone to actually sit there and do that... but if anyone feels up to it, this feat would certainly be deserving of a headline and a link on the main page, replacing the tired old "Happy New Year" that has been there, well, all year.

I take your point Kurki, although Barbirolli is the slowest in the group, his opening clarinet is a good deal faster than some.
I agree completely with Andrew B regarding pauses and I was not aware that some record companies include the pauses in their track times. In the good old days of vinyl [which I still enjoy] pauses between tracks could be very brief in order to fit all the music on one side. Happily this is now usually less of a problem with Cd's. It can be very disconcerting to begin a gentle and peaceful movement imediately following a noisy one. Can anyone shed any light on the practice by certain conductors of hardly pausing at the end of the second movement of Sibelius 5 before rushing into the Allegro molto finale. Does Sibelius indicate this in the score or is it just a whim of the conductor?-- kullervopete.

I'm a little panicky right now, I just got home from Belgium yesterday and I can't find my study score of the 5th...

But if I recall correctly, there is no indication in between movements of the 5th to do quasi attacca or anything of the sort. That said, I think there is something about the way each movement ends and the next begins that warrants a feeling of continuity.

The ending section of the 1st movement is in four bar groups, it is very feasible to conduct it "in 4", with one beat to a bar. The very last bar of the movement is the 4th of its group, which is very unusual. (Much more common would be to end with on the first bar of the next (incomplete) group, or a Classical 4+2+1 ending) This ending on the "4th beat" creates the sensation of an upbeat which desparately needs closure, or at least continuation. That continuation, in my mind is the first chord of the 2nd movement. I think that it is important for a conductor to somehow carry over the energy of that "upbeat" through to the downbeat of the 2nd movement.

The ending of the 2nd movement, while very beautiful, seems somewhat cut-off and short, given the "gently-burbling-expansiveness" of the variations that precede it. Again, this to me suggests that the time-flow of the piece needs to move forwards into the finale, without creating a real break between the 2nd and 3rd mvmts. Also, the beginning of the 3rd movement is a strange 5-bar plagal-like quasi-chord, with the theme really beginning in the 6th bar. This start in my ear is more of a continuation.

For me, the only real beginning and ending in this piece is the opening of the 1st mvmt and the closing chords of the Finale.

All of this said, the breaks in between the movements must not be true attaccas, it is more a question of carrying the energy over into the next movement, with your body language during the silence and by getting a feeling for the situation, for the accoustics of the hall, for the "feeling" of the audience.

As with some of Sibelius's greatest works, the Fifth Symphony finishes but does it really end?--kullervopete.

Outside of the discussion I must tell how happy and proud I was today when listening Tampere Phil playing the 5th in the general rehealsel. Cond. was Hannu Lintu, who will be the new artistic director. Keep that name in mind.

Tampere Phil 19.9. : Kaipainen , Mahler

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

Tampere Phil 22.5. Kaipainen Bruckner

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

H. Blomstedt S7/Finnish RSO

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

This above mentioned concert includes an interwiew of Herbert Blomstedt. Very interesting. Unfortunately in Finnish and Swedish. Maybe Andrew can get it.