Greetings from a new member.

I am curious to know what people think of the recent Segerstam symphony cycle with the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. It seems to get mixed reviews. The British Sibelian, Robert Layton, pretty much panned it while the American critic, David Hurwitz gave it a high score.

I find such wildly differing reviews confusing. According to Layton, Segerstam is not faithful to the composers instructions and markings. Hurwitz doesn't seem to have a problem with this. Is one critic right and the other wrong? How faithful to the score should a conductor be?

I look forward to reading your opinions.

Hi djs, nice to hear from you. Segerstam is a controversial Sibelius conductor because he does take certain liberties with the scores. But has we all know, being completely true to the score does not guarantee a good performance. A great conductor gets behind the notes and gives them life. I have all the Helsinki cycle with the exception of No. 4. Segerstams 6th is for me a front runner and the 7th runs it close, but the Helsinki cycle is highly competitive and were as a conductor like Vanska is certainly more true to the written score, Segerstam has much to offer. His earlier cycle with the Danish Radio S. O. is also superb. His account of the Third Symphony, Scene with Cranes and Tapiola was record of the year with the UK Sibelius Society in 1992 and the Fourth Symphony was runner up in 1991. To sum up, take no notice of the critics!--kullervopete.

One of our favourite members here, arenan, plays in the Helsinki Philharmonic and is a big fan of Segerstam and that cycle. He has not posted in a while, I will send him a message about this thread and see if he rejoins us and offers up more priceless "Quote of the moment" material.

Leif Segerstam is such a fascinating and creative musician that it's always interesting to hear what he does with other people's music. Yes, he takes liberties - sometimes rather large ones - and you might not like the results; but if he and you are in the same frame of mind, his intuition and insight can be phenomenally convincing. Similarly, Bernstein also took huge liberties in his Sibelius performances, but few would question his greatness as a musician.

I can certainly aggree with Andrew that Segerstam is a facinating and creative musician. On 2nd Nov. as part of the Festival 'Sibelius and beyond', Segerstam conducted the Royal Academy Concert Orchestra in Sibs Karelia Suite, Finlandia and his own Symphony No. 173. As anyone heard any of Segerstams symphonies?.
A few years ago in Manchester, Segerstam gave Finlandia as an encore. Now recordings of this popular piece must run into dozens, but I just had to seek out his recording, for it positively sings.
Andrew is again so right about Bernstein, both these two conductors might stray from the straight and narrow from time to time, but they never give a dull performance!--kullervopete.

We recently had a concert in St.Peterburg (Shosta-Hall, the great hall of St. P) with:

Tuonelan Joutsen
Violin Concerto
5th symphony

as an encore:

4th of the Lemminkäinen
Alla Marcia
Finlandia

Of course we played well but the second concert (in Helsinki) was even better. In bad acoustics we played the Forementioned stuff very good and Segerstam was at his best. I still do believe that he is one of the most brilliant conductors with Sibelius.

YO. Tomorrow.

I will have a good try-out with Leif. I will be performing as a musician with him and yes... Totally try to Reap with the music!

-M

If you haven't seen it, try this link:

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

– and maybe Kurki will find a 'quote of the Moment' here too…?

A good link, but no need to delve any deeper for Quotes of the Moment than arenan's posts. Welcome back.

arenan wrote:

4th of the Lemminkäinen Alla Marcia Finlandia

Wow, that's some encore. That's basically half a concert with my orchestra...

I love that cycle! The horns are strikingly excellent, the string section awesome, the woodwinds as fine as they can be (the oboes are stable, balanced & have the ideal sound IMO, I have heard no intonation problems with the flutes & they're all very good) and the percussion are... percussion. So the orchestra is great.
I can't see any problems with Segerstam's interpretation, his dynamics can be rather extreme, he uses the orchestra's fortissimo sparingly, but it suites this music perfectly.

With the exception of the 2nd Symphony, I think Segerstam hit a home run with everything else in his Helsinki SO cycle.

I think we should thank heaven for conductors like Segerstam who take the music of a composer and do something new/original with it. If everyone played the notes exactly as written, we would just have the same interpretation over and over again.

I like the high drama Segerstam bring this cycle. Plus, the playing and sound on this cycle are second to none. It really is quite excellent in my estimation.

My only problem is Segerstam's take on the 2nd. It's just too slow in parts and lacks the punch that Barbirolli and Maazel gave it decades ago. I like a super-charged 2nd, and Segerstam seems slightly asleep at the wheel.

I admit that I still haven't heard any symphonies from Segerstam's cycle, even though I've been promising arenan for a very long time that I would pick these up.

Tapkaara wrote:

My only problem is Segerstam's take on the 2nd. It's just too slow in parts and lacks the punch that Barbirolli and Maazel gave it decades ago.

This reminds me of Sibelius' own comment about this, that the main theme of the movement is perhaps the happiest melody he ever wrote and therefore he cannot understand why so many conductors take it so slowly.

As for Maazel, his rendition of the 2nd happens to be the only Symphony that I like from that cycle.

I really like the Maazel/Wiener Philharmoniker cycle. It was the first one I ever purchased, so I suppose I'm partial to it for that reason.

But I honestly enjoy all of the performances. And I think Maazel's 2nd Sympony remains my favorite recording of the piece. Okko Kamu also has a very good go at it on Deutsche Grammaphon.

Kurki, you really have to hear the Segerstam cycle. It's truly amazing. I just wish he took a more driven approach to the 2nd...

During today's Toronto shopping spree, where the selection is great compared to Prague, I have FINALLY picked up this cycle! I absolutely cannot wait to listen to it, but will wait until I get back to the Czech Republic next week to do so, as things with family are pretty hectic over here in Canada.

I'll be sure to post a bunch of thoughts and reactions, so Czech back when I'm back Czech.

ugh.

You will like this cycle, Kurki. Segerstam's conducting is generally incredible. And the sound...is there a Sibelius symphony cycle better recorded than this one?

It's truly an experience.

I don`t collect records actively and have only two cycles, Saraste/Finnish radio( rec. in St Petersburg) and Segerstam/HPO (my brother who plays horn there gave it to me). I listen the to the 1st movement of the 4th cond. by Segerstam every day. It is so...good.

I have been working through the cycle at random, listening to a bit of this, a bit of that, and a bit more of this. So far, there are 2 pieces that really stand out in my mind (I have admittedly not heard them all yet).

The Fourth Symphony is about as expressive a recording as I have heard, taking tasteful liberties (nuances, rather) that help important moments stand out in an unobstructive way. While the austere gravity of the Symphony definitely comes through, I find that there are many pleasant and even "happy" moments that I do not hear in other renditions.

The Finale of the Second Symphony is both a delight and a puzzle to me. Puzzling are the frequent cesuras (little pauses or "breaths") that Segerstam inserts throughout the first subject. He is obviously trying to emphasize an "arrival" on the first beat of the next bar, but in my opinion it happens too often, disturbs the flow and to begin with, isn't in the score.

The most delightful surprise that this set has brought me thus far is the closing subject of the Finale, the big Hymn. As I mention in

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

thread, there is a common mis-conception among European and American orchestras that the hymn has an upbeats at key points in the phrase, which it does not. When listening closely to Finnish recordings, one discovers a very beautiful way to phrase this melody, the phrasing deriving from the natural rhythms of Finnish speech. Segerstam's rendition is absolutely by far the best example of this that I have ever heard, eclipsing even my beloved Lahti recording.

I look forward to the 5th, which is next on the menüü.

Kurkikohtaus wrote:

The Fourth Symphony is about as expressive a recording as I have heard, taking tasteful liberties (nuances, rather) that help important moments stand out in an unobstructive way. While the austere gravity of the Symphony definitely comes through, I find that there are many pleasant and even "happy" moments that I do not hear in other renditions.

Kurk, I think we're hearing the same things in Segerstam's Helsinki Fourth, though I found the "happy" moments to be purposefully reined in. I'll have to revisit it as I've heard several Fourths in relatively short order of late. Under another nom de web, here is a brief bit I wrote elsewhere back in June:


Sibelius: Pohjola's Daughter; Symphony No. 4; Finlandia
Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra
Leif Segerstam, cond.
ONDINE
This album, performed by the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Leif Segerstam, contains an interesting program opening with an expansive and heartfelt Pohjola's Daughter that actually manages to elicit a slight grin as it progresses from its morose beginnings. The incredibly austere Symphony No. 4 is performed as soberly as I've ever heard; its slightest hint of "gladness" is never allowed to exceed the bounds of a concept formed of severe propriety. This being no exception, I continue to find each performance of this symphony interesting in its own way. The Finlandia here includes a concluding section with male choir - first I've heard it. Otherwise, I find it dutifully, but comparatively dully performed.

I have a box set that has different pairings and unfortunately omits Pohjola's Daughter, but it is indeed with Helsinki on Ondine, so surely it is the same recording.

Interesting that our reactions are that different; I feel this Fourth to be certainly austere but warm and expressive as well compared to the other recordings that I have (and like). Although is like this one very much, my favourites are still Vanska and Karajan for this piece.

Moving on to the Third Symphony in this cycle, there are a few of the same strange pauses as I described in the Second, two to be exact. One is weird, the other disastrous, in my mind.

Segerstam puts quite a lengthy separation between the last 2 chords of the first movement. It sounds a little out of place for a plagal "Amen", but so be it.

Concerning the second pause I will be much less forgiving. It comes right between the two notes of the climactic descending 5th in the Scherzo part of the 3rd movement, obviously trying to emphasize the down beat and give it more strength. Whether this effect (affect) is or isn't achieved is to me an irrelevent point. It seriously disturbs the texture and pace of the music at that important point, knocks us off balance and in my mind creates an anti-climax. And again, as in the Second, it's not in the score.

When I hear things like this, I try to get into the mind of the conductor to try to understand what leads to this decision making process. In this case, I would narrow it down to one of 2 things: Either Segerstam doesn't think Sibelius climax is strong enough and is trying to "help" it, or he doesn't think listeners will understand the climax if played as written, so he over-emphasizes it by saying "Wait for the climax, here it comes, here it ... ... IS." Neither of these lines of thought lead to acceptible results, in my opinion.

On the bright side, the 2nd movement is a true slow movement, as Andrew B has taught us to appreciate, and the hymn in the Finale is once again impeccably phrased, as is the hymn in the Finale of the Second Symphony.

Kurkikohtaus wrote:

It comes right between the two notes of the climactic descending 5th in the Scherzo part of the 3rd movement, obviously trying to emphasize the down beat and give it more strength.

I seem to remember that Ashkenazy does much the same (with a slight ritardando) in his Philharmonia recording. Haven't heard the new Stockholm one yet. And with Ashkenazy too it seems like an affectation, at least to my ears.