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Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Does the vodka keep the mosquitoes away? I've tried garlic without much success.
Lyndon Jenkins has written an article about Beecham, Walter Legge [his record producer] and the Fourth Symphony from which I quote the following letter from Sibelius to Legge on 17th January 1935, while Beecham was preparing the work:
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'My dear friend,
Many thanks! I am very pleased with Sir Thomas Beecham’s observations. Here are the answers to the questions. I hope you can decipher them. In haste!
Best wishes, Your devoted Jean Sibelius
Symphony No. 4, Jean Sibelius
First movement
Tempo primo. Crochet = 52-60
Letter B to Tempo primo [p.5] crochet = 40(-45)
Tempo primo [p.5] crochet = 60
(i) Adagio [p.11] crochet = 40
Tempo primo [p.12] crochet = 60.
Second movement
Second violin. Letter I pp with only the very slightest crescendo.
Third movement
Letter A. Horns - if played firmly: con sordino (sound as with the Finnish Orchestra, senza sord).
Fourth movement. Tempo minim = 132. From letter S on, gradually becoming softer and softer until minim = 100 at letter W. From letter W until the end minim = 100. The last 6 bars: mf. As solemnly as possible and without ritardando (tragic, without tears, resolutely).'
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Comment from Andrew B: by 'softer' he most certainly means 'slower', an error made by JS when translating the Finnish 'hiljaisempi' which can have either meaning. Note that Sib actually does permit a slight easing of tempo at the end but not a ritardando as such. Minim = 132 is pretty fast, though - I can't see many orchestras or conductors maintaining that speed anyway. _________________
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Kurkikohtaus Site Admin


Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 930 Location: Praha, CZ
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:11 am Post subject: |
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I find the ending so profound when there is no ritardando or no sudden meno mosso before the last bars.
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| Letter A. Horns - if played firmly: con sordino (sound as with the Finnish Orchestra, senza sord). |
That is quite a jarring comment... am I reading it correctly in that Sibelius was inferring that the Finnish horns were weak or at least had a tinny sound? _________________
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david johnson Orchestra Member - Principal


Joined: 04 Jan 2007 Posts: 230 Location: arkansas/missouri
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:22 am Post subject: |
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...just a finny sound!
we would have to hear the performance sibelius' comment was referring to in order to understand the tone quality he was explaining.
dj |
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Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 2:00 am Post subject: |
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It does indeed seem to me that he horn tone of Nordic orchestras has changed over the past couple of decades. If you listen to the (few) discs that Jorma Panula made with the Helsinki Philharmonic in the 1960s, the horns do have a weaker, thinner sound than nowadays. It might be partly a question of recording quality but I remember a similar tone in live concerts from the Stockholm Philharmonic (before it was Royal!) in the mid-1980s.
Any opinions, arenan and Harri M? _________________
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arenan Orchestra Member - Tutti


Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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As it comes to the fore I know that Helsinki PO have started to use F-horns (Vienna horns). So the sound of today actually stems to the sound of the Sibelius's early 1900 sound.
Comment from Andrew B: by 'softer' he most certainly means 'slower', an error made by JS when translating the Finnish 'hiljaisempi' which can have either meaning.
All that I know as a Finn, Sibelius did not understand English. German, Latin, French, Swedish, Norweigan, Danish, Far-island, Italian etc. Everything goes. But Sibelius had enormous difficulties with English...
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Kurkikohtaus Site Admin


Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 930 Location: Praha, CZ
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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"Far-island"?
Is that Icelandic, as in the language spoken in Iceland? _________________
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Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
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Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Arenan makes a good point - Sibb could get by in a lot of languages but never became fluent in English (although he did actually speak it a little bit). I think I remember reading somewhere that the elderly and infirm Robert Kajanus actually took English lessons before travelling to London to make his famous recordings.
Interesting about the Helsinki Phil horns. I just hope that they aren't complemented by Viennese oboes and Russian trombones!
But I hear that the Sibelian climate might be changing for the better, even in Vienna. Thanks be, some years ago Leif Segerstam broke a decades-long taboo by playing the Fourth Symphony there (a work the Vienna Philharmonic refused to play in concert, remember). This spring the Lahti Symphony Orchestra and Osmo Vänskä played it to a packed Musikverein and it was apparently well received! _________________
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arenan Orchestra Member - Tutti


Joined: 03 Nov 2006 Posts: 96
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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew B wrote: |
Interesting about the Helsinki Phil horns. I just hope that they aren't complemented by Viennese oboes and Russian trombones!
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Orchestra respecting their values. No Viennese or Russian or any else nationalities in the playing! |
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kullervopete Conductor in Residence


Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 1121 Location: Bury Lancs UK
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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When Sibelius began the first sketches for his Fourth Symphony, he had indeed recently travelled to the Koli district in Karelia and experienced the impact of the rugged terrain, vast expanses of forest, the unending lakes and the relentlessly changing weather, one minute a violent tempest and suddenly bright sunlight breaking through the clouds. The English Conductor, Basil Cameron went to Jarvenpaa to study the work with the Composer. In the course of their conversation Sibelius pointed to a picture showing a valley, with a rainstorm on one side, and bright , cold sunshine on the other. 'I was with my brother-in-law when he painted that picture', he said; 'I also put that incident into my Fourth Symphony', indicating the passage in the score.
But It would be a grave mistake to view this work as some kind of 'Alpine Symphony' and despite the overwhelming darkness, I do not find this great work in any way pessimistic, to quote Composer Robert Simpsons remark 'The final dogged chords of A minor that finally emerge unruffled from the terrifying spasm of the last movement are as heroic as anything in music'.--kullervopete. _________________ Peter Frankland |
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