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for an interesting little essay about Sibelius' activities during WW2, with special mention of the never completed 8th Symphony.

There is a page entitled "Commodo" and it is believed to be the very first page of the 8th. Pic of that page is floating on the internet, could someone file it here!? I have seen it. And some Sibelius-authors do believe that some parts of this symphony is buried to some later organ work that I do not ever seem to remember.

I think the page you mean is a very sketchy thing (a couple of instrumental lines for a bar or two, not enough to be playable in any meaningful sense) marked 'Sinfonia VIII / Commincio', National Library of Finland ref. HUL 0421. There is also a rising motif, circled and marked 'Trio' and 'VIII’, among sketches for the Seventh Symphony (HUL 0362/2).

For an authoritative essay on the history of the Eighth Symphony, see Kari Kilpeläinen's article 'Sibelius Eight. What happened to it?' in Finnish Music Quarterly, viewable online at FIMIC

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For a valiant but highly speculative piece of musical straw-clutching, see Nors S. Josephson, 'On Some Apparent Sketches for Sibelius’s Eighth Symphony', Archiv für Musikwissenschaft, Jahrgang 61, Heft 1 (2004). Here Josephson takes the rising motif from HUL 0362/2 and assumes that it is the 'central intervallic matrix' of the entire Eighth Symphony. He then relates this to various other (mostly) unidentified sketches from Sibelius's late period. Having myself examined all the manuscript material, I don't find anything to confirm the idea that this little motif should be of central importance in the Eighth Symphony, and thus the basic premise of his article seems flawed; moreover, some of the sketches that he discusses are pretty clearly intended for non-symphonic works. I admit, though, that he presents his proposals with great thoroughness and evident passion.

The organ work in question is Surusoitto (Funeral Music), Op.111b. Its link with the Eighth Symphony was first suggested, I believe, by the composer Joonas Kokkonen, and Aino Sibelius thought that he might perhaps be right (N.B.: I don't think she told him that it was definitely right, as is often claimed). But note the timeline: Surusoitto was witten in some haste for the funeral of Akseli Gallen-Kallela in March 1931. At that time it is highly probable that Sibelius was still working in a serious and concentrated way on the symphony: in October 1932 he promised to send the score imminently to Koussevitzky, and in mid-1933 the first movement was with the copyist Paul Voigt. It is unlikely that Sibelius used in an occasional piece a theme already reserved for a major orchestral work, and so one must assume that he had already decided against using the Surusoitto theme in the symphony by March 1931, and had gone down another route.

As for the style of the Eighth, I would suggest that we should look for parallels not in the Seventh Symphony and Tapiola but in the late opus sets for piano and violin/piano, Opp. 114-116, in the Suite for Violin and Strings, JS 185 (all from 1929), and in the piano four-hands piece Rakkaalle Ainolle (To My Beloved Aino, JS 161 - not yet recorded, sorry, but it has been played in concert once or twice), written for Aino's sixtieth birthday in 1931. In these works we see a radical new stylistic direction (abstract, less melodic, harmonically bold, not so easy on the ear and, strangely, perhaps less integrated), but it is very hard to judge it because it was not used in any major orchestral work… except presumably the Eighth Symphony. This new style seems to be reflected in the sketches from the years after 1924, along with hints of earlier trends.

In the end, of course, we just don't know.
That fireplace at Ainola keeps its secrets.

Andrew B wrote:

In these works we see a radical new stylistic direction (abstract, less melodic, harmonically bold, not so easy on the ear and, strangely, perhaps less integrated)...

Not surprising, quite logical that the 8th would have been this way.

In my opinion, a symphony in this style would have been more interesting to listen to than another wholly integrated work like the 7th and Tapiola. Sibelius took a few deliberate turns in his career, all of which produced remarkable results, so why not another such turn after the pinnacle achievements of integrated orchestral music?

Harriet Cohen (1895 - 1967) was a British pianist of some stature during her time. She premiered Vaughn-Williams' piano concerto, has 6 pieces from Microcosmos dedicated to her and has an award in her name (Glenn Gould and Ashkenazy have won this).

She tells the following anecdote about Sibelius' 8th:

"In 1930 there were rumors that Jean Sibelius had started work on his Eighth Symphony. I was staying in Finland in the late summer of 1931 and asked him, 'What about the Eighth Symphony? I don't believe it exists.'

His eyes twinkled. He took a cigarette packet, opened it up and drew two sets of five lines. On them he wrote a large chord and said, 'That is the opening of my Eighth Symphony.'

Who knows? Perhaps I possess the only manuscript."

It was indeed quite common for Sibelius to use themes from his unfinished symphonies in some of his smaller pieces and particuarly
for piano, and in most cases the piano works were written before
the symphonies. Looking at some of the works written around the time that he was working on the 8th, Surusoitto [Funeral music]
1931, is certainly a possible candidate. This is no run of the mill
Organ music and it seems to be moving ever closer to expressionism. This is the tendency among artists to subordinate
realism to the symbolic or stylistic expression of the artists or
character's inner experience. In this respect, Sibelius was moving
very close to Schoenberg.

Veijo Murtomaki in dicussing Surusoitto has pointed out 'its merciless dissonances and open intervals, the music sounds as
though it is coming from another planet' Tawaststjerna asserts
that 'a new Sibelius can be heard in this music, perhaps a new
style'! Also the three pieces for violin and piano opus 116 [1929]
are also moving in the direction of expressionism.

A few years ago, Antti Vihinen put forward an interesting idea that
'perhaps Sibelius wanted to write a symphony that would combine
the new expressionist style with ancient church melodies' and as
we all know there is something almost sacred about the 6th and
7th. It is known that Sibelius decided to outline a tentative
structural framework for the entire 8th symphony under the title
'An epic Fantasy' We know that the first movement had been
completed in 1933 when Paul Voigt returned to Sibelius the printed
copy. Sibelius replied 'Title: Sinfonia 8, at the end : fermata. The
Largo continues without a break. The whole piece will be roughly
eight times as long as this. As for your honorarium, I beg you to
accept at least 10 Marks per page. with best greetings' etc.

So it seems that the first movement was complete and was to be followed after a fermata [pause] by a Largo movement and it would
seem to be planned on the same scale as the second symphony,
and apparently would be in the key of Bd major.
It may have also marked a return to a more expansive style and
even have been choral, alas we will never know. But let us give
thanks to the wonderful works that the master has left us.
kullervopete.

The first movement was apparently completed, yes. These days the copyist would no doubt secretly make a safety copy (which would be fine unless he was using some goofy Windows application which would 'accidentally' manage to erase it anyway).

I would say it is a bit too strong to say that Sibelius used themes from unfinished symphonies in other works. Can you give any examples? I'd rather say that he experimented with themes in different contexts before deciding where to place them.

More importantly, once a theme was 'in the public domain' - i.e. in a published and/or often-performed work, Sibelius hardly ever re-used it in any other context. If you check out the instances when he did re-use ideas, almost without exception the source work was unpublished/forgotten/unplayed. In fact the only exception I can think of just now is Laulu Lemminkäiselle, which of course uses a theme that was at that time (1896) still in its original place at the end of Lemminkäinen's Return.

For that reason I don't believe that the Surusoitto theme was actually intended for the Eighth Symphony. Indeed, the chronology clearly shows otherwise, and the sketches that I have seen do not remotely suggest any sort of symphonic purpose.

Please, please, please do not attach too much weight to the 'epic fantasy' business. It comes from the Nors Josephson article (see earlier post). The sketch in question – HUL 1729/4 – EMPHATICALLY DOES NOT indicate any sort of overall framework for the symphony - it merely refers to eight or so bars (plus partial continuation), in the style of the Op. 114 piano pieces. With all respect to Dr Josephson, this is precisely why I find his article so provocative: it encourages people to read far too much into these very fragmentary sketched motifs. But, as with the early works, so too with the late sketches: anything with a catchy title will encourage people to take an interest.

Kari Kilpeläinen has also suggested a 'sacred' context for the Eighth Symphony. It is a very interesting idea and he argues his case persuasively, though admitting that we'll never really know.

Perversely I am - in a way - quite glad that we don't have the Eighth Symphony. It has become the Holy Grail of Sibelius researchers and remains a great topic for debate!

Thanks for your iluminating points Andrew, as regards my remark
about Sibelius using themes from symphonies in earlier piano
pieces I would refer you to that distinguished exponent of Sibs
piano works, Annette Servadei, and I quote 'Another interesting
fact emerged from listening to the symphonies while studying the
piano music : I quite often heard themes from piano works in them
and on referring to the catalogue, I discovered that in almost all
cases the piano works were written before the symphonies'.
Now Annette Servadei has a deep grounding in Sibelius's piano
writing and I for one am prepared to go along with her findings,

As regards ''Surusoitto' I was careful to make clear that in my opinion this fine Organ piece was only a possible candidate in
containing themes from the 8th, we just dont know. speaking
for myself, I would be overjoyed if the 8th was suddenly discovered in some dusty vault.--kullervopete.

Annette Servadei's recordings are certainly worth hearing, I agree.

But - call me stubborn or literal if you will - I cannot find a single example, theme or motif, that justifies her remark. I suspect she intended her comment to be taken in a very broad sense. Certainly there is much in the sound world of the piano music that can be compared with the orchestral works. But a straight loan from piano work to symphony - nope, just didn't happen.

Now there's a challenge - somebody find hard evidence, prove me wrong, put egg on my face!

Further to the possibility that Sibelius used themes from the piano works in his Symphonies, I decided to sound out one or two other opinions as it facinates me.
Edward Clark is the President of The UK Sibelius Society and I know that he admires many of the piano pieces. I asked Edward what he thought of Annette Servadei's findings. 'I think that my good friend Annette was gilding the lily a little as there seems no proof of Sibelius 'trying out' themes or motves in his piano pieces before such appear in any Symphony. More to the point is Sibelius intuitively writing music that could cross over one to the other. His piano works are marvellous but they remain sketch like, little miniatures with an abundance of melodic invention and sometimes harmonic exploration, the latter being relevant to the Symphonies I think, I particuarly like opus 58 in this respect'.
I contacted next ,Leland Hoch, Mr. Hoch is President of The Sibelius Society of America. Leland was most interested in Annette Servadeis's findings and he went on to say that her conclusions were absolutely fascinating. He urges us not to be deterred by those who might disagree, and he is now prompted to take a close look at 'Surusoito'.

I now decided that it was time to get in touch with the distinguished pianist herself. Miss Servadei told me that she had recently been listening to a Prom performance of Sibelius 5 conducted by Sir Colin Davis, with a friend and she had mentioned the very fact that she heard various themes from the piano pieces, used in the Symphonies. Unfortunatly, at the time of her studies some years ago she did not keep any records. But she remains convinced however that she heard the themes, which according to her research, were first heard in the piano pieces. She mentioned that Sibelius consulted Busoni about certain aspects, and if he were not serious about them, why would he have done this. Miss Servadei feels strongly that the problem is that Sibelius's style in the Symphonies, differs so much and are on such a 'grand' scale in comparison, that the piano pieces are belittled. When one considers that most Scandinavian composers piano works were on a small scale, it may be a natural expression. Griegs only piano sonata was also on a small scale in comparison with other composers of the time.
I was very sorry to hear that Miss Servadei has had some health problems in recent years. She had a stroke in 1997 losing her co-ordination and finally got it back to perform a Mozart recital in 2005. Later she had a fall, severely breaking her left wrist, it needed a plate and again a period of re-generation. The good news is that she makes her 'come back' on 23rd September this year at St Mary and St Eanswythe Church, Folkestone in an all Mozart programme. I know that we all wish her a great success.--kullervopete.

I think we must make a clear distinction between opinion and fact, and put this topic firmly to bed. Frankly I really don't care how many alleged experts claim something to be true if I myself know from empirical observation that it is not.

Over the past few years I have listened in detail to every single one of Sibelius's piano pieces, even fragments that most people don't even know about, and I can state CATEGORICALLY that NO themes were re-used in the symphonies. Please don't try to contradict this, as it is just not open to debate: it is a hard fact which, given unlimited time, I would willingly demonstrate.

From what you tell us, Annette's opinions (they are not findings or conclusions, as they are not based on evidence!) are no more than a distant memory that even she cannot substantiate. Bluntly, they are a delusion. Leland Hoch is a great Sibelius enthusiast but I don't know how many of these smaller works he knows in detail. Edward Clark is right to be sceptical!

Ignoring straight piano transcriptions, there are just a few instances of themes from piano music being re-used in other works. Examples of this (not an exhaustive list) are:

1. Catalogue of 50 themes for piano, 1887 >>> one idea reused in the Harmonium Quartet around the same time
2. Theme and Variations for piano solo, JS 198 (lost), Vienna 1891 >>> immediately adapted into the Piano Quartet in C minor/major, JS 156
3. Till trånaden, JS 202 (1913) >>> shares material with the second movement of the orchestral suite that was the predecessor to The Oceanides.

Plus a few motifs which are too small to be regarded as themes in their own right, of course.

There is a theme in the slow movement of the Fifth Symphony that resembles that found in one movement from Swanwhite, but it is not a direct quotation - not by any means (and in this context it is scarcely relevant as Swanwhite isn't a piano piece).

To find any degree of overlap one must look at a much more primitive stage of the compositional process. Among the very rough sketches for the orchestral works there are a few that are laid out in a manner suitable for performance on the piano. These include sketches for the slow movement themes of both the First Symphony and Violin Concerto. Both of these sketch extracts are incomplete; they trail off into nothingness. Needless to say, Sibelius probably didn't even think of these as piano pieces, but merely as working tools; he never even considered publishing them or listing them among his finished compositions. The manuscripts have probably been seen by just a handful of people, and Annette Servadei is not one of them. (It is fascinating to hear them, though, and they will be included in the BIS edition in due course.)

QED, yes?

I raised the possibility of a connection between Sibelius's piano works and Symphonies because I was deeply intrigued that their might just be a grain of truth in it. It may well be a load of old twaddle, but surely nobody can have a monopoly of the truth, particuarly were Sibelius is concerned. Below is part of an illustrated talk from The Third International Jean Sibelius Conference held in Helsinki in December 2000.
In discussing the piano works, Mr. Alesaro made a very important link between Sibelius's later piano music and his orchestral works. He stated that Sibelius often composed his orchestral music at the piano. Often the piano pieces sound like a draft of orchestral compositions, and he gave a number of examples drawn from the piano works. So some of the piano pieces laid the ground for the style and content of later orchestral music.--kullervopete.

'So some of the piano pieces laid the ground for the style and content of later orchestral music' —

Yes, that covers it perfectly (and I think applies to the earlier ones as well).

I have recently touched on Sibelius and religion, so I was facinated in looking at the essay on Sibs never completed 8th symphony [see Kurki's opening post] This caught my eye --Einer Englund heard from his tutor Marti Paavola that he had visited Kommiokatu in 1940 and had been allowed to look in Sibelius's safe. Paavola recollected that the safe contained one Requiem, one Symphony and also some Symphonic Poems.
A Requiem is certainly a religious work, but all the same this is a big surprise.--kullervopete.

Of course we can only speculate... but, purely conjecturally, here is something to consider...

It would seem logical that a requiem would be for a specific person. Quite a lot of Sibb's close family and friends died in the 1930s, but the only of for whom he specifically provided any sort of musical tribute was Akseli Gallen-Kallela (the organ piece Surusoitto, Op. 111b). This piece was not published until 1955 - Sibb turned down several opportunities to do so in the 1930s - and so the manuscript would most likely be in his collection of recent works. Might this, then, have been the work that Paavola saw? Of course it is less substantial than a full-scale requiem, but did Paavola actually say that he had seen a full-scale work? If he did not examine the materials too closely - and Sibb would surely have seen to that! - then this may at least be a possibility.

The symphony he mentions must surely be the Eighth - and as for the symphonic poems, the two unpublished Lemminkäinen movements were probably lying around as well (1939 revision and/or the originals).

I agree that the symphony was probably the elusive eighth and the two Lemminkainen movements also seems pretty plausable.
But the 'Surusoitto' Organ piece is very brief, lasting a little over four minutes and although it reveals aspects of Sibelius's 'new style', I wonder if a music professional like Paavola would have referred to it as a 'Requiem'--kullervopete.

You are absolutely right, of course... nobody can be certain and I am only putting forward notions and ideas for consideration and debate.

In any case one would really need to know Paavola's exact words. If he spoke to Englund in Finnish and called it, say, a muistokappale, that could very easily be rendered in translation as a requiem, especially if the story passes through a few people's hands (like a game of Chinese Whispers)... At a pinch even the word Surusoitto could be loosely translated as 'requiem', come to that... Or Paavola may have seen a piece which Sibb described in passing as a 'requiem for somebody', and the description may have become amplified in the telling. It's not always so easy to tell the scale of a work from the cover page - there may have been other sketches or manuscripts bound together with it, or anything...

Sibelius was at this time in possession of at least 4 copies of Surusoitto - the copyist's (fair) copy, another copyist's version with corrections, yet another copyist's score 'approved by JS', and his own manuscript - which incidentally was bound and also contained some blank pages. If he had kept all the copies in with the bound manuscript, the work might have appeared more substantial than it really was. [They are all part of the composer's collection, donated by SIbelius's family to the National Library of Finland: manuscripts HUL 1778, 1779, 1776 and 1893 respectively.]
But who can say how he kept them - I am only speculating...

kullervopete wrote:

(idea)

AndrewB wrote:

(discussion)

1:29 am

I'm drumk as a finn.

I love the Sibelius forum... it's all here.

Hopefully Kurki is now sober!
The 'Surusoitto' is a remarkable Organ piece. Its interesting that Sibelius seems to have had a dread of attending funerals, but he made an exception in Axel Gallen's case. It seems that Gallen's Son-in-law, musicologist A.O. Vaisanen had phoned Sibelius and managed to talk him into composing a piece for the funeral. Sibb surprisingly agreed but was later panic-stricken that the funeral was nearly upon him and he had no music ready. But Vaisanen held firm, 'You have given your word. The invitations have been sent out and the programme has been printed, it says that funeral music by you will be played. Everyone counts on your music being heard in church. And moreover you are going to be one of the Pall-Bearer's'. The result was 'Surusoitto'.
There is a story about Sibelius's own funeral. Sibbs coffin was transported from Helsinki to Ainola. The streets were crowded and everybody wanted to show their respect for the great man. Sibbs coffin was in a black car, which suddenly stopped on a small incline. It had to be pushed by the car behind it, in order to start running again. It was as if the great son of Finland and Finnish music suddenly had second thoughts...as if he didn't want to rush the last trip, which led to his final resting place in the forested hills of Ainola.--kullervopete.

Yes I have heard that story too (though I haven't been able to verify it independently).
A Volvo, according to the videos - not so much 'I roll' as ' I get pushed' in this case.