Sibelius is not generally thought of as an exponent of the percussion department. His writing for the Timpani is never less than acomplished, though he was perhaps not as 'up front' as say Nielsen or Shostakovitch.
In around half is output, Sibelius used only two drums, elsewhere he uses three or four. In the first Symphony of course Sibelius used the Timpani to remarkable effect in the Scherzo. This was the only one of the Symphonies to also make use of the bass drum, cymbal's and triangle.
In general Sibelius seems to limit the Timpani to quiet rolls and occasional strokes. Both the Seventh Symphony and Tapiola begin with raps on the Timpani and in No.7 the Timps have an important solo at one point.
In 'The Oceanides' Sibelius used two Timpanists.
Curiously Sibelius ommited the Timpani from his great Tone Poem 'En Saga'. In this remarkable work he uses the bass drum [played with timpani sticks] to great effect. This has puzzled a number of commentators, perhaps Sibelius wished to get a more raw and primitive sound.
Sibelius did make use of frequent chords on the Timpani using three and sometimes four drums. In The Swan of Tuonela the drums are struck similtaneously in minor thirds.
Sibelius used the Glockenspiel [Campanelli] in Lemminkainens Return. In 'The Oceanides' there is a part for 'Stahlstabe' normally given to the glockenspiel. For many years in the last movement of the Fourth Symphony it was not entirely clear whether Sibelius wanted Glockenspiel or Tubular bells. The score published by Breitkopf and Hartel in 1912 asks for 'Glocken' which suggests Tubular bells. Some commentators have suggested that this was a misprint [Sibelius used bells when he premiered the work in 1911] but several letters from Sibelius to various conductors suggest the use of the Glockenspiel.
Several conductors including Georg Szell and Colin Davies have used both. Most conductors have opted for Glockenspiel but a few have used Tubular bells including Ansermet, Bernstein and Jarvi.
In the early Tone Poem 'The Wood Nymph' [1894] Sibelius had used the Tambourine, Triangle and Cymbals to great effect and when we go forward to one of his last great scores 'The Tempest' [1926] Sibelius was much more lavish in his masterly use of percussion. In 'Calaban's Song' Sibelius uses the Xylophone for the very first time, with an array of other percussion including the side drum, Glockenspiel and Tambourine
To some up, Sibelius never used the percussion for simply sensational effect, apart from the first symphony and bells in the fourth, he limited himself to the Timpani in his symphonies. In a number of more overtly descriptive works Sibelius made expert use of the percussion.
Any views on Sibelius and the drums?.--kullervopete.

The original 1899 version of the First Symphony had some pretty wild percussion in it: side drum and castanets as well as timpani. Sadly not enough of this version has survived for a reconstruction (let alone a performance) to be attempted. No doubt the forthcoming JSW critical edition (ed. Timo Virtanen) will clarify the matter further.

As for the Fourth Symphony, this old business of tubular bells or glockenspiel is like a bad penny that won't go away. Glockenspiel it is, always was and always should be. Kullervopete: where do you get the idea that Sibelius used big bells? Let me check also the 1911 manuscript (very different from the published version in some respects) and get back to you on this one.

he should have used more percussion, but he didn't...so play what he wrote.

dj

I am afraid that the question of Glockenspiel or Tubular Bells is far from as clear cut as Andrew B would have us believe.
In Sibelius's great Tone Poem 'The Oceanides' [1914] Sibelius suggested the use of 'Stahlstabe' this is another word for the high, bright Glockenspiel. I would suggest that Sibelius clearly intends a distinction between the sound that he wants in the tone poem and in the Fourth Symphony.
Sibelius did object to the use of very deep bells in the fourth, which he thought sounded to oriental.
As I mentioned earlier, Bernstein used the Tubular bells in his fine Newyork recording from the sixties and this was said to be Erik Tawaststjerna's favourite account of this masterpiece.--kullervopete.

At the end of our performance of the 7th symphony in April 2007, I gave only 2 solo bows: the first to the 1st trombone, and the second to the tympanist. Nobody was quite as shocked as he was, he wasn't sure if I was gesturing at him and quite comically looked over his shoulder (there's no one behind him).

After the concert, he approached me and jovially asked why I stood him up, that he had "just a few notes"...

Exactly.

In pre-concert talk in 8.12. 2007, Birmingham, Lyndon Jenkins gave a copy of a Sibelius` letter to John Storgårds, in which he says that it is clockenspiel.

I didn`t remember right.( I have not seen the letter) I just asked Storgårds. In the letter Sib says that he recommends Clockenspiel.

I did make it clear in my first post that Sibelius did suggest the use of the Glockenspiel to a number of conductors, including Beecham and Cameron. Perhaps he prefered this option so as to avoid large and deep sounding bells being used.
I have read somewhere, the source of which I can't find at the moment, that Sibelius finally admitted in 1954 that he had wanted 'Glocken' all along--thus ending years of confusion!
Sibelius's views on the use of percussion in contemporary music including Jazz are very illuminating.
'We take them from primitive people, whose treatment of them is much more assured than ours. The significance of these instruments is much greater than people in general believe. Their time has now arrived. Drums are extremly important in the orchestra and the drummer must be very musical--which is understood by a very few'.--kullervopete.

kullervopete wrote:

Drums are extremly important in the orchestra and the drummer must be very musical--which is understood by a very few'.

By a very few drummers?

Sure, different instruments in different pieces... (don't forget the analagous case in Väinön virsi!) - but really, in all seriousness, in the Fourth Symphony, it is very clear-cut indeed: there is NO substantive or plausible case for using tubular bells. I cannot find, and have never found, any reference to Sibelius doing so, or ever advocating their use in this work - indeed quite the reverse. Kullervopete, if you find this source from 1954, do let us know - it is so totally contrary to everything else JS said on this matter that I have very severe doubts about it.

I know some conductors have used tubular bells in the Fourth but hey, some conductors mess up - even great ones! Just because a conductor plays something, it isn't necessarily right. Come to that, Colin Davis faithfully plays the misprint in the flute part (3rd mov, 2nd bar after F, should be D natural on second quaver, corrected in modern editions) and mutes the horn chorale in the finale (letter G, as per 1911 manuscript score but changed for the published score).

Now can we please put this tired old spectre to rest?

Sibelius was usually pretty forthright when it came to problems in the performance of his works.
As an example, when Beecham sent pressings of the Fourth Symphony to Ainola, Sibelius wrote a long letter of criticisms about the recording and exactly how he wanted it to sound. This louder, that softer, expression marks all the way through, some crescendo out, etc. And yet he merely says to conductor Leslie Heward 'I would suggest to you the using of the glockenspiel in the fourth Symphony and of stahlstabe in The Oceanides. Not exactly definative in view of the long controversy!
Mention of Beecham reminds me of his and Sibelius's view on Jazz.
Sir Thomas was asked what he thought about Jazz 'The most degraded form of human aberration'! he replied with his bristles twitching.When 'Life photographer' Elliot Elisofon visited Sibelius in 1943, he asked the maestro 'What about Jazz' too which Sibelius who was then 78 years of age replied 'If I were only younger'
I think that says it all!--kullervopete.

I remember, in Finland a while ago I saw a TV documentary - interview with some of Sibelius's grand-daughters - and one of the ladies clearly remembered that shortly before his death Sibelius had a dream about composing some jazz pieces.

Must have been some dream.

Speaking of percussion, Sibelius and Jazz, imagine this:

A fast swing rhythm accentuated by the typical swinging hi-hat, with a big band led by saxophones playing the big brass tune from En Saga, swinging the 8th-notes that follow the four half-notes.

Somewhat a dispicable fantasy, I know.

I wonder if Sib tuned into Jazz on his radio occasionaly. He certainly kept up to date with all aspects of modern music. Unlike some of his contemporary's such as Stravinsky, Shostakovich and Milhaud to name a few, Sibelius never tried to imitate Jazz. But many of his greatest works have a sense of inprovisation about them which is of course so important in Jazz.
Sibelius did have a very active dream life. Levas confirms that Sibelius heard a good deal of music in his dreams, by which he was much moved, but when he woke up the music had largly dissolved into something banal and useless.
As violinist he once achieved a fantastic masterpiece in a dream, by the time he was awake it had become a complete impossibility.
At the start of this thread I pointed out that Sibelius did not use the Timpani in 'En Saga', I have noticed also that he ommits the Timpani from another fine Tone Poem 'The Dryad' [1910] I think that this is another work along with 'The Oceanides' and 'Tapiola' that reveals the influence of Claude Debussy.--kullervopete.

Kurkikohtaus wrote:

Speaking of percussion, Sibelius and Jazz, imagine this: A fast swing rhythm accentuated by the typical swinging hi-hat, with a big band led by saxophones playing the big brass tune from En Saga, swinging the 8th-notes that follow the four half-notes. Somewhat a dispicable fantasy, I know.

blue kullervo at midnight
lemminkainen's riff
sib's boogie

oh, my...

dj

HIP HOP THE NIGHT AWAY

AT JANNIES PLACE

WITH SIB AND THE RIB TICKLERS

FEATURING 'AXE' CARPELAN ON DRUMS
TAP TAP TAP TAPIO

SPECIAL GUEST -TOMMY 'SWANEE' BEECHAM [VOCALIST]

under my tuonela, nela, nela nela...

dj

To be serious again, regarding the vexed question of tubular bells or glockenspiel in the finale of the 4th, I can confirm that Sibelius himself used bells when he gave the premiere of his fourth symphony in 1911. The evidence can be found in the Helsinki Philharmonic archives. This pretty well confirms that the score published by Breitkopf in 1912 was correct in asking for glocken.

Robert Laytons assersion in his book 'Sibelius' that this was an abbreviation for glockenspiel was incorrect. The correct abbreviation for glocken is 'gslp'. It seems that Sibelius changed his mind several times over the thorny question of bells or glockenspiel, and he finally admitted a couple of years before his death that he had wanted glocken all along.--kullervopete.

kullervopete wrote:

The correct abbreviation for glocken is 'gslp'.

kullervopete, is that a typo? I think maybe glsp or gspl might be more accurate?

Kullervopete: I take it that you prefer tubular bells in this work?

So Sibelius used tubular bells? I must admit that I find that very hard to believe. It flatly contradicts ALL the letters he wrote to publishers and the specific requests he made regarding corrections in the score. Moreover - as every conductor I know has pointed out very forcefully - it is virtually unthinkable to use tubular bells here, simply because they don't sound clearly at the speed required by the music. But I shall willingly check the HPO archives and the manuscript score from April 1911 when I am next in Helsinki (next month).