ianmax200 wrote:

I liked Stravinsky's self deprecating remark that "composers combine notes. that's all"

But it's HOW you combine those notes is what counts! Some are
better at the art if combining than others.

kullervopete wrote:

For me, there is a distinct line between Art and Science. It seems to me that Stockhausen had closer ties with the latter. I think that the most succinct definition of Art came from [Aristotle] 'Art completes what nature cannot bring to finish'.

I've had to think about this a bit. At what point does technology stop merely serving the artist and begin dictating and defining the state of the art?

In music, film, and television; I've seen so-called non-linear editing (Avid, Final Cut, et al.) go from merely making traditional post-production easier and more efficient to actually setting new "acceptable boundaries" in the arts; or as Tapkaara puts it, "'popular' views of what aesthetics should be". "Acceptable" art, especially so-called popular and commercial art, is now being "created" with newfangled software instead of at the word processor or piano with results which would be well-nigh impossible using the conventional methods of only ten or twenty odd years ago. Whether it's better or worse is debatable.

As to Aristotle's definition of art which Pete cites, is advancing technology allowing the artist to better consummate what nature cannot "bring to finish", or is it promulgating a certain distance and misdirection from that which nature intends? For what it's worth, I tend to believe the latter.

Stravinsky also said that music had no emotion! I only know that Sibelius was first and foremost an artist of nature. But unlike the Stockhausens of this world, Sibelius was able to express his vision using the tools of the standard Symphony orchestra. He had no need for new or exotic instruments, but he did not oppose radicalism as such. What he would have made of much of the electronic and computer generated 'music' is of course a matter of conjecture. What in the final analysis places Sibelius above and beyond the self styled guru's of modernism, the perpetrators of todays empty pop culture and commercial sensationalism is his ability to make a simple chord sound his own. Remember when you are being dazzled by the latest fad, that only an artist such as Sibelius can reveal the strangeness of the common place.-kp

Stockhausen: Stimmung
Collegium Vocale Köln
DEUTSCHE GRAMMOPHON (LP)
First heard by these virgin ears in its entirety on late night public radio sometime in the early '70s, Karlheinz Stockhausen's a capella classic Stimmung still teases the intellect and delights the aural senses. (I hesitate using the term a capella lest I be scolded and reminded that the work is scored for six voices and six microphones!) That there've been at least three succeeding commercial recordings of Stimmung since this original DG release from 1969 (I'm doubting such is the case for any of Stockhausen's myriad other works) certainly attests to the work's continuing fascination among venturesome listeners and performers. Whatever its composer's influences or inspirations, several of which he imparts in the notes, I'm left smiling by its simple and seemingly inevitable conception -- exploring the artistic possibilities inherent in the merest overtones of the human voice -- brilliant! What could possibly be more fundamental, more primal, more natural? (Eh, fellow Sibelians?) I believe even certain Stockhausen naysayers can delight in Stimmung's simple (and often erotic!) vocal ruminations.

The only other recording of Stimmung I've heard is that of Singcircle on the Hyperion label; it's more confident and forthright in its execution; but hardly as intimate, exploratory, and charmingly naive as this original. However, if one's German is as challenged as mine, Hyperion's text translation is appreciated.

The problem with talking about the avant-garde is that how does one judge its value? On what grounds does one criticize it? Simply based on how it makes someone feel at the moment? On the effect it has? By its very nature the avant-garde is constatly seeking to create something new and uncategorizable, underived and unique. Therein lies its greatest strength but also that which condemns it to complete irrelevancy beyond the moment of its creation.

Certainly a piece like Stimmung is not "irrelevant", based on record sales, the sustained level of interest that it maintains over the decades and a the immediacy of the emotional experience that one goes through when listening to this... but is it quality? I ask that in a very metaphysical

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-like sense. Does this "art" manifest, contain and communicate quality? I will go on the record by saying that it doesn't, because I believe that the idea and the medium are far more interesting than the content itself (possibly another general feature of the avant-garde), and that to me is not quality.

A small aside... do you all know the quote by Saint-Saëns about Debussy's name? Along those lines, I wonder how Karlheinz Stockhausen's music would have been received and thought of today had his name been Karl Stock...
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Despite my criticism of Stockhausen, I do appreciate Moldy Oldie's infusion of this topic into our general discussion, I think this composer and the phenomenon surrounding him raises important thoughts that heighten our personal awareness of art.

Thanks to Moldie and Kurki for two excellent posts. Try as I can, I have been unable to find any point of contact between the electronic guru and the great Northern Symphonist. I was therefore surprised on learning recently that Stockhausen as been cited as a very important influence on the 'Spectralists' composers. Composers such as Tristan Murail and Gerard Grisey have confirmed that 'Stimmung' as been very important to them. The amazing thing is that Sibelius too, has been identified also as a powerful influence on the French spectralists. Perhaps Sibelius's music is more avant-garde than is traditionally thought.--kp

Kurki, your thoughts on the musical avant-garde are very well expressed, and I agree with you 100%.

At the end of the day, art, or shall we say "good music" will always be in the ear of the beholder, but I for one think composers like Stockhausen were are more "stuntmen" than musicians.