I've often wondered about that quote too.

Perhaps by "Finnish," Parmet is referring to its elusive, almost "soft spoken" nature.

The stereotype is that Finns are taciturn. They are not terribly open and rarely express their inner-most feelings. Thus, a "typical" Finn may seem elusive, perhaps hard to get to the root of.

(Again, this is a stereotype, and may not really be true. I've met Finns who meet this description perfectly, however!!!)

Anyway, there is an "elusive," mysterious element to the 6th that makes it, perhaps, hard to get to know. When the 6th speaks, it is mostly subdued gestures; again, perhaps this is a "Finnish" trait.

If you do not know many Finnish people, I think knowing the Finnish character as it relates to the 6th may be hard. But as a long time member of a local Finnish club, I know Finns pretty well, so this quote somehow makes sense.

(Andrew B is married to a Finn, I believe, so I'm sure he's got lots of insight into this as well.)

Tapkaara wrote:

The stereotype is that Finns are taciturn. They are not terribly open and rarely express their inner-most feelings.

There's probably some truth in all national stereotypes of this elk, but for every one person that fits the bill, there is probably another who doesn't.

My personal experience with the few Finns whom I've met isn't so much that they do not express themselves, but I have felt a certain level of discomfort in them when I express my own feelings too openly, somewhat akin to the Japanese people I know.

In my mind, this fits the 6th exactly from a conductor's perspective. It is not a piece onto which you want to imprint your personal feelings, it is not a piece that should be used as an empty vessel for (the conductor's) self-expression. It "cannot handle" this approach, one would "risk offending" the work or a the very least "making it feel uncomfortable".

Wow Kurki, that is a truly fascinating observation. I think you are very right about "offending" the 6th my trying to impress too much of yourself on it.

There's a joke...

When an introverted Finn says "I love you," he looks at his feet. When an extroverted Finn says "I love you," he looks at your feet.

Whose feet does the 6th look at?

(Tapkaara: Andrew B is married to a Finn, I believe, so I'm sure he's got lots of insight into this as well.)

I was also married to a Finn, maybe I also know something.

Getting back to Parmet for a moment, I suppose there's also an element of surprise that he picked the Sixth rather than the one that is conventionally (if misguidedly) seen as the nationalist standard-bearer, i.e. the Second. But then we might like to consider the following quote from the composer and musicologist Erkki Salmenhaara:

‘The Second Symphony is a big Romantic symphony. In it, the First Symphony’s archaic, Slavic tone yields to a central European ideal. The symphony is closer to Brahms than to Tchaikovsky.”

In the 1970's Austrian critic Peter Stadlen wrote 'There seems nothing particularly Finnish about Sibelius's music'.
I suppose Sibs music sounds as Finnish, as Beethoven's sounds as German. I think that there is something about the Finnish language with its stress on the first syllable that is reflected in his music. But I don't think that any 'Finnish' characteristics in Sibelius's music should be overplayed. It was of course Virgil Thompson who described the second symphony as 'vulgar, self-indulgent and provincial beyond all description'.
Although Finland is justly proud of its 'National' composer, Sibelius increasingly strove for and achieved a truely international music with universal significance.
Sir Thomas Beecham described Sibelius as above all 'A Northern composer'. Whatever Finnish qualities might be found in Sibelius's sixth symphony, the music clearly transcends local boundaries.-kp

Virgil Thompson was, quite obviously, an idiot.

Well in one sense there is definitely nothing particularly Finnish about the music: something tells me that we wouldn't like Sibbe so much (if at all) if he had merely jotted down a few 'Finnish folk tunes' and spent his whole life re-arranging them for piano, harmonica, male choir, string orchestra, you name it. Some national composers did just that (here comes that whiff of Norwegian cow-dung again...).

Andrew, I couldn`t agree more.

In a sense what is so remarkable about Sibelius's music is that he did not make use of Finnish folk music as such, he created it.--kp

Well, I've got nothing against nationalist composers who make use of folk music in their works, though I must admit, if Sibelius was nothing more than a repackager of Finnish folk music, he probably would not be as interesting or as profound.

What was I reading the other day that so wrongly said that Sibelius's music was all folk tunes? I can't remember. The article even said that his 2nd was all based of Finnish folk music. Goodness gracious!

What would an arrangement of the Sakkijarvi polkka sound like by Sibelius???

I smell the Norwegian doo-doo too, Andrew. This is a good example of a composer whose use of folk music is not all that inspired. Of course, this is only an opinion shared by you and me, but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who adopts this train of thought.

And I am inclined to agree with Pete that Sibbe actually CREATED folk music in Finland. Well, at the very least, he created Finnish art music, and probably created Nordic art music as well.

kullervopete wrote:

he did not make use of Finnish folk music as such, he created it.--kp

Could you amplify this, Pete? There was plenty of Finnish folk music knocking around before Sibelius, after all...

Tapkaara: on BIS-NL-CD-5001 there's an arrangement (NOT by Sibelius) of Säkkijärven polka for whistler (sic!) and piano, performed by the late, great Leo Eide, whistling virtuoso - who, maybe appropriately in the context of this thread, was Norwegian.

Sibelius´s lecture 25.11.1896 would be good to read. Andrew, is it available in English? In Finnish I have found it in "Musiikki" 1980:2. In following link is interesting information about the only time he did arrangements of folk music (in Finnish only,sorry). There is also told how 16000 notes of Finnish folk music were collected.

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Andrew B wrote:

on BIS-NL-CD-5001 there's an arrangement (NOT by Sibelius) of Säkkijärven polka for whistler (sic!) and piano, performed by the late, great Leo Eide, whistling virtuoso - who, maybe appropriately in the context of this thread, was Norwegian.

Hmmm, sounds...interesting. I love the Säkkijärven polkka, by the way. Ever hear the Leningrad Cowboys do it? Man, is it awesome!!

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kullervopete wrote:

he did not make use of Finnish folk music as such, he created it.--kp

Andrew B wrote:

Could you amplify this, Pete? There was plenty of Finnish folk music knocking around before Sibelius, after all...

I don't want to get to deep into this. In 1891 Sibelius travelled to Porvoo to meet Larin Paraske, a singer of Karelian Folksongs. Sibelius made notes on her inflections and rhythm. I believe that these ancient Runes where absorbed into his bloodstream. For Sibelius the Kalevala was on a level with the the Greek epics. In Kullervo, Sibelius expressed the Kalevala in music, the first flowering of a music that seems like the ancient legends themselves to have emerged from deep in the soil. Sibelius always denied that he used folksong in his themes and melodies, but just as the folklore and epic poems of the Kalevala go back to an ancient past, so Sibelius music seems in a very real sense to always have existed.--kp

Yeah... probably the Paraske meeting to some extent consolidated what he had already assimilated sub-consciously.

Glad that the Leningrad Cowboys have made their forum début. When in Helsinki be sure to try their restaurants/bars, especially Zetor, with its Czech tractor theme. (No kidding.)

Harri - thanks for the link! I've never seen an English version of his talk. Something for a rainy day, maybe.

I´m now reading "Matkat" ( "Journeys"), a book in which is collected Elias Lönnrot`s writings abouts his trips when collecting material, which happened to become Kaleva. There were people who could sing more than two days new poems, only stop for sleeping and eating. But unfortunately, he only took the words.
(listening my x-mas present, Kullervo,Sib/HPO/Segerstam)