| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
kullervopete Conductor in Residence


Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 1121 Location: Bury Lancs UK
|
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:49 am Post subject: Symphony No 2 final chords |
|
|
Its amazing the licence that conductors take with the final powerful chords of the Second Symphony.
As I understand it, the score indicates breaks between these chords.
Looking at a few examples, Anthony Collins seems to add a prominent variant of the Timpani part. Barbirolli sustains the strings across the gaps and Ansermet unusually plays it as written.--kullervopete. _________________ Peter Frankland |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
|
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, you'd think they would be so straightforward but no! Full of traps for the unwary. To take another example, just listen to the way Neeme Järvi elongates the last chord to about four times its logical (let alone notated) length.
The JSW Critical Edition notates each chord separately, though not as such separated by cæsuras. As notated, the timpani rolls are separate on each chord (my own view is that any gaps should not be exaggerated).
I don't know where Baribirolli's idea came from (unless it was a rather idiosyncratic way to bring out the tenuto marks on the first two chords).
Collins, on the other hand, plays a different timpani part all through the coda (every fourth bar the first beat is changed to two crotchets - from memory on the pitches G- D). This is based on - but I think not quite identical to - the ending used by Koussevitzky; it was Koussevitzky's idea, and he did get the composer's permission - though only VERY grudgingly. I have heard similar 'modifications' from Sir Charles Mackerras and Vernon Handley - but the Collins is the most noticeable because (1) the timpani is forwardly balanced and (2) the player isn't in any way afraid to be heard. Still, as there is no doubt that Sibelius didn't really approve of Koussevitzky's changes, there really can't be any sort of argument for keeping them. _________________
Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
david johnson Orchestra Member - Principal


Joined: 04 Jan 2007 Posts: 230 Location: arkansas/missouri
|
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
'it was Koussevitzky's idea, and he did get the composer's permission'
'as there is no doubt that Sibelius didn't really approve of Koussevitzky's changes, '
?
sounds like it was approved.
dj |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
|
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Permission and approval are very different! One consequence of Sibelius’s well-known reticence on the subject of interpreting his own music was that he tended to say yes to conductors who wanted to mess about with his scores while privately disliking the changes intensely. That is exactly what happened here (there is a quote somewhere to prove this, but I can't find it just now – can anybody help?). It's understandable that he didn't want to offend Koussevitzky but the end result, long-term, was merely to create confusion. _________________
Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kullervopete Conductor in Residence


Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 1121 Location: Bury Lancs UK
|
Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
When Anthony Collins was preparing his recording of the Second Symphony with producer Victor Olof, they were very keen to ensure that their approach to the Symphony was very much in tune with the composers requirements. To this end, Olof consulted Sibelius on many aspects of the performance. Olof confirms that the timpani varient used by Collins was from the edition prepared by Kuussevitzky with the composers agreement. So it would appear that Sibelius himself sanctioned the timpani varient in Collins classic recording.
But as Andrew implied, Sibelius often went along with requests to tamper with his music, out of the sheer goodness of his heart.
There was a Canadian clarinettist who wanted to know why he couldn't go on playing to the end in the Second Symphony, but had to stop before the last chord. 'If you really want to,' said Sibelius 'you can play quietly. You won't do any damage by this'.
I think that says it all!--kullervopete. _________________ Peter Frankland |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Andrew B Soloist


Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 684 Location: Brighton, England
|
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
You mention Victor Olof, the record producer... but did you know that he also recorded Valse triste as a conductor? (He had studied conducting, violin and piano.)
This might be a good place to mention the absolutely crucial role played by the producer in a good recording. Most people hardly know they exist, but they are as essential to a good recording as a fine director is to a successful play or film.
(To clarify the terminology: on a recording the producer (Ger: Aufnahmeleiter) is the guy who controls the whole proceedings, discusses with the musicians, approves the sound balance, orders retakes, checks that everything is covered, decides what is artistically and technically acceptable, selects takes for editing, etc. etc. The German term Produzent is best rendered as 'executive producer', i.e. they person who arranges the recording but probably isn't present at the sessions.) _________________
Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kurkikohtaus Site Admin


Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 930 Location: Praha, CZ
|
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
In Czech, the "Producer" is simply called the "Director", a parallel term and function that the Director of a film has.
I suppose that would make the conductor just another "actor", to carry forth the analogy.
Certainly, as Andrew B notes, the Producer/Director's role is crucial. There is simply no way that a conductor can catch everything that is going on during a recording session. The extra set of fine-tuned ears is very important, especially given the fact that preparing a recording and preparing a performance are very different different processes. Recently, my orchestra recorded some dress rehearsal snippets for a simple demo CD. There was no producer/director, the takes were basically run-thoughs with some retakes afterwards... the results were certainly not "Issue-Quality", but hiring a Producer would have put us way over budget given what the demo was for.
In summary: Producers, Yes. _________________
Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum! |
-
Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kullervopete Conductor in Residence


Joined: 08 Jun 2007 Posts: 1121 Location: Bury Lancs UK
|
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes Andrew, Victor Olof founded the wartime National Symphony Orchestra and on 24th November, 1946 when Beecham was indisposed with gout, Olof conducted the Royal Philharmonic in Sibelius's Second Symphony from the Royal Albert Hall. Quite a guy.--kullervopete. _________________ Peter Frankland |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|