Thanks,Pete!
I think I'll invest in that double CD soon
Yes, Ormandy did the whole Lemminkainen suite in 1951 with the Philadelphia, and it's available on play.com (mp3 downloads) for only £1.99 - thrilling stuff ( I have quite a few downloads now, and with even a cheap interconnect to my amp I can really enjoy good sound quality - it doesn't feel quite the same as "owning" a CD, but the main thing is it's instant and often cheaper

Pete,
The downloads are not on play.com, but on ;

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and tap in "Sibelius Ormandy" in the search box

Sorry about the false trail!

No problems Martin, some interesting stuff on that site. I'm wondering if much of the Ormandy 1950's material including the Four Legends are taken from live concerts, broadcasts etc. Some are certainly new to me. Certainly worth investigating, thanks-kp

A comment here by Mr. Tim Page on Tapiola. 'Reminiscent of Valse triste at times, contains subtle hints of Rimsky Korsakov in the exquisite, playful orchestration'.

In fifty years of listening to Sibelius's marvellous tone Poem, it can still reveal new insights, but has anyone else also noticed Mr. Page's observations? --kp

kullervopete wrote:

A comment here by Mr. Tim Page on Tapiola. 'Reminiscent of Valse triste at times, contains subtle hints of Rimsky Korsakov in the exquisite, playful orchestration'. In fifty years of listening to Sibelius's marvellous tone Poem, it can still reveal new insights, but has anyone else also noticed Mr. Page's observations? --kp

I don't see the Valse triste connection unless there is something very subtle going on that I have not noted.

Rimsky-Korsakov? Hmmm, not sure about this either. Again, what am I missing?

And I don't like the term "playful" to describe its orchestration. I understand what he's getting at, but that word just does not fit Tapiola. I'd say "prismatic orchestration" instead.

Tapkaara wrote:

And I don't like the term "playful" to describe its orchestration. I understand what he's getting at, but that word just does not fit Tapiola. I'd say "prismatic orchestration" instead.

I tend to agree with Tapkaara, certainly in the seventh symphony, Sibelius seems to look back to Valse triste at one point, but I have never detected any particular influence of this exquisite little piece in Tapiola. A Russian influence in Tapiola? in the form of Rimsky Korsakov, well experts on orchestration may or may not find something--but I have never heard it! I also think that 'playful' is not a term that I would use with regard to Tapiola. Those woodsprites might be having fun in the forest gloom, but they terrify the living daylights.

Thats another brilliant quote from Tapkaara 'prismatic orchestration' --kp

Sibelius said: "Tapiola is a sonata form".

Anybody does it see it? Really are there anything in order to afirm this?

I can hear a perfect variations form, like all the scholars said. Is it a joke, a absent-mindedness?

David, we are in treacherous waters's here! I think that JS's remark can only be found in the Finnish edition of Santeri Levas's book 'Jean Sibelius, memories of a great man' [1986] Of course Sibelius adapted sonata form to his own requirements and musicologists have come up with some remarkably varied descriptions regarding the musical processes at work in many of his compositions. For example looking at the first movement of the fifth, Abraham suggests that the 'second part' can be seen as scherzo and trio with repeat and recapitulation. Whereas Simon Parmet see's it as a toccata, and I could go on with many more examples. The truth is that Sibelius approached composition with a mixture of powerfully calculated logic combined with an unfettered imaginitive instinct, thus his music does not submit readily to analysis. I would guess that if JS did make this comment with regard to Tapiola and sonata form, he may have been reacting to the wonderful and weird formula's being dreamt up by musicologists. After all, some authorities contend that Tapiola is in fact a fully fledged symphony. Amid the discerptions of his sixth symphony, Sibelius described it as a poem.--kp

Treacherous waters indeed. In most late Sibelius the form is determined by the content and this is undeniably the case here. As there can be any number of possible analytical views of these works, I take a 'live and let live' attitude here: find a description that you believe in, and stick to it. (And ideally keep it to yourself unless you want to be contradicted by everybody else.)

As usual Andrew B talks good sense here. I would say that in works such as Tapiola, we have to go back to the late Quartets of Beethoven and the variation form that he had developed. Beethoven strips the theme right down to its basic underlying shape, and this stays constant while everything else--tempo, orchestration, rhythm and mood varies round it. Interestingly that respected Sibelius expert Veijo Murtomaki sees Tapiola as opening out both through the application of Sonata form and also via the principle of variation.--kp