As a matter of interest, the lovely Oboe melody in the second symphonies third movement trio which begins with eight or nine repetitions of its initial note was said to be based on a Czech folk--tune which Sibelius heard while in Prague.--kullervopete.

Now that I did not know.

Any idea what that tune might be? I have a 2-volume catalogue of Czech and Moravian folk-tunes, I skimmed through it looking for something like the trio theme, and came up empty.

I have no idea, I got the imformation from a good source 'Sibelius'
in The Master Musicians series by that Distinguished Sibelius
expert, Robert Layton.--kullervopete.

Further to my last post I have been in touch with Robert Layton regarding the trio from the second symphonies third movement. Mr. Layton says that he has looked through Parmet, Ekman, Gray, Abraham, Johnson and all the other authors that he would have consulted at the time, but can't find any appropriate reference though he didn't have time to go through them thoroughly. Mr. Layton says that it is possible that Nils Erik Ringbom, Jussi Jalas or Eva Paloheimo told him about the story. The fact that he didn't mention it in the second edition of his book or later editions may be that he was told that it was merely a legend. By the time that Mr. Layton was doing the second edition he confirms that he would have checked everything with Erik Tawaststjerna, so he may have questioned the idea. At almost half a century later, He can't remember exactly! and he does not think that Mr. Rohac should waste any time on it but it would be interesting to know if he does come up with something resembling this idea.--kullervopete.

kullervopete wrote:

...I have been in touch with Robert Layton regarding the trio from the second symphonies third movement.

You know Robert Layton?

Wow. I wish I knew Robert Layton.

As for my own digging, I have since my last post consulted yet another catalogue of folk songs and come up empty. Czech's and especially Moravians are quite thorough in their folk song catalogues, so If I have not found it by going through 3 volumes, it may in fact not exist. That said, a nice legend nevertheless.

It might be a folk-tune not yet found. Or maybe something a street musician composed but represented as a czech-folk tune to appeal to the turists, might even be a folk-tune from other country.

Saturnus! Nice to see your first post!

kullervopete, due to the recent popularity of this topic, I have split it off from the original topic into its own thread.

Saturnus might well be right, Sibelius may have heard a street busker during his stay in Prague, he touched music at many points and could unbend to the corniest kind of popular dance tune.
We know that Sib spent some time in the Czech capital during 1901 when he in fact met the two leading figures in Czech music, Antonin Dvorak and his son-in-law Josef Suk. According to Sibelius 'I was not able to spend much time with Dvorak, but it was sufficient to give me an extraordinarily favourable impression of him. The old man was naturalness and modesty personified and spoke very modestly of his art, not at all as one would have imagined from his position in the musical life of his country and of the world. Incidentally, he said quite sincerely 'wissen sie, ich habe zuviel komponiert' [Do you know, I have composed to much] I could not agree with his opinion'.

Sibelius particuarly in his later years always denied that he had used actual folk songs in his symphonies and he always maintained that his themes were entirely his own. It has been pointed out that the opening of the famous hymn melody from Finlandia is remarkably similar to a patriotic choral piece from the 1880's by the Finnish composer Emil Genetz 'awaken Finland' and even that famous swan hymn theme from the Fifth symphony , first heard on the horns is almost bar for bar similar to a music hall song of the time! All this does not prove anything of course but maybe Sib could be a little economical with the truth from time to time, how should I know.--kullervopete.

I strongly suspect that the resemblance between the hymn in Finlandia and Genetz' Herää Suomi is indeed more than a coincidence. After all, Sibelius had no idea that this particular movement would become a smash hit; he merely needed to write an appropriate finale for the tableau music. Six years earlier he had overtly quoted Pacius's Vårt land in the finale of the Karelia music (remember it was not then the national anthem, though!) and so Genetz' song would have been a very suitable model for a similar set of tableau pieces.

What is coincidental, though - as well as being rather convenient from today's perspective - is that this very theme makes such prominent use of an 'S-motif' and thus takes on Sibelian colour and sonority so effortlessly that it's hard to imagine that it might have had one or two of its roots in a neighbour's garden.

I believe it is safe to assume, however, that any similarity between the Fifth Symphony and a popular song is coincidental.

I think we can aggree on that--but any thoughts on the Oboe melody --kullervopete.

Actually none at all - at least no salient facts. My gut instinct is that the Czech folk tune is probably a red herring. The melody's contour and rhythmic devices are quintessentially Sibelian so, if there was an external impulse at all, it must have been assimilated and reworked and altered beyond recognition.

Choose your favourite...

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

..

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

..

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

My vote is in.

Maybe just something the oboist, who also was a czech rauschpfeife player famous for his crazy jigs, improvised on the premiere?

(my vote goes to the red fish)