I might be getting in deep water but I will try.
I think that I first used the phrase a couple of years ago when I wrote to Gramophone magazine.
In a review of the great Czech conductor Vaclav Talich, Tully Potter stated that Suks 'Asrael' symphony is superior to several Mahler symphonies and often like Mahler with better taste.
Up popped an indignant Mahler enthusiast [J L Wilson] to take Potter to task. She went on 'In what sense 'superior'? structurally? inspirationally? I too love the Asrael symphony but it surely has a far narrower emotional range than most Mahler symphonies.....'
I responded to her letter in the January 2006 issue. I made the point that an emotional response to music is a very subjective and personal experience, and that there can be little doubt that Mahler can overwhelm us with the variety and intensity of his emotional message. I then made the further point that if emotional diversity was the only prerequisite factor required in music, then even the last three symphonies of Mozart [let alone Suk] would stand in Mahlers shadow.
It seemed to me that J L Wilson in her efforts to bolster the music of Gustav Mahler was trying to relegate Josef Suk into the third rank of composers, simply because his music did not contain the emotional range found in much late romantic music and Mahler in particular.
My point about Mozart being, that within a period of six weeks in the summer of 1788 the master wrote his three outstanding symphonies that represent the climax of Mozarts powers as a creator of absolute music. In Mozart we have one of the supreme 'classical' composers, were a more or less consciously accepted formalistic scheme of design is in evidence, with an emphasis on elements of proportion and of beauty. This distinguished from that class of music in which the main object appears to be the expression of emotion, literal and pictorial.
Mahler covers a far greater range of emotions in his symphonies than Mozart, but as works of art Mozart is the towering figure.--kullervopete.

This is truly a fascinating discussion.

I will opnely admit that I enjoy Sibelius AND Mahler. BUt my favorite of the two is, without a second of though, Sibelius.

I completely agree that any emotion that is felt by the listener is a completely sunjective experience. To say that Mahler, for example, has a greater range of emotion is his work is completely unprovable. I experience great emotion when I listen to Sibelius. But I understand others may not. There are a great deal of people who get worked into a frenzy by Mahler, but there are many other who listen to him and say "So, what was that all about, then?"

To my humble ears, there is power and emotion in both Sibelius and Mahler. Perhaps Sibelius is less hysterical than Mahler, but that does not mean Sibelius's music is shallow and sterile in comparison. Both were complex, troubled men who experessed themselves via their very different idioms.

Having said all of that, Sibelius's 7th is the ultimate cosmic ride in music. I fully agree with other posters here that Mahlers take on humanity is a very up close and personal affair whereas Sibelius is the mystic who see the world , or the universe for that matter, in a much broader, "cinemascope" view.

Perhaps we can think of both compsers in space. Mahler is in space looking down at us, looking at us through a microscope and Sibelius is also in space, but looking into it with a telescope.

I'm beginning to think that Mahler's emotions in his music are far more "direct" - that is, if you're gonna feel anything from Mahler's music, it's going to be right there, practically in the music. He knew how to directly put emotions into an audience's mind (like the end of the Second Symphony would be some sort of ecstatic, overwhelming kind of joy); but, once again, it changes from person to person.

That said, Sibelius may well be the greater composer of the two because he doesn't go straight for the gut, but he still evokes emotions through his music. It isn't like Mahler, who has powerful emotions practically "built-in;" rather, he has the music "speak" to the listener. It's more difficult to "pin" an emotion to Sibelius music because his music doesn't directly project emotions; it evokes emotions.

That was, by the way, totally improvised and could have been said in far less words... oh well.

kullervopete wrote:

In Mozart we have one of the supreme 'classical' composers, where a more or less consciously accepted formalistic scheme of design is in evidence, with an emphasis on elements of proportion and of beauty. This distinguished from that class of music in which the main object.

Now I understand what you were trying to say and your point is well made. Personally, I think that the Proportion and Beauty that you talk about are the factors that can turn great music into great art.

Tapkaara wrote:

Perhaps Sibelius is less hysterical than Mahler, but that does not mean Sibelius's music is shallow and sterile in comparison.

I love this sentance.

Earlier in the thread I quoted Cecil Gray who once compared Sibelius's fourth symphony with a species of star, which Phyicists and Astronomers call a white dwarf, the substance of which is so dense and compressed that a piece the size of a coin may weigh as much as several tones. Looking at Mahlers remark that 'the symphony must be like the world' reminds me of another quote, this time by Professor Gerald Abraham 'These titanic 'worlds' of Mahlers have an unfortunate resemblance to the planet Jupiter, whose mean density is little greater than that of water'.

My definition of a Sibelius lover : someone who can listen to 'At the castle gate' from Pelleas et Melisande Suite without thinking of the BBC's long running programme 'The sky at night'. --kullervopete.

I couldn't possibly be reminded of that, as I have never seen the show, so I suppose I'm well off, eh?

As to the whole "white dwarf" thing - what's the Seventh, then??? It's got to be denser than the Fourth! and Tapiola also...

They're like black holes into eternity, is my guess.

Well actually I dont take the view that the Seventh and Tapiola are 'denser' than the Fourth. After the incredible concentration of the symphonic argument in No 4, Sibelius was never again to return to its strange world, bordering no mans land. The Fifth marked a return to the land of the living, in the Sixth we see Sibelius in repose as it were. For me, compared to No 4, the Seventh is Sibelius's 'Sinfonia expansiva'--kullervopete.

After having some whisky, but still serious, I ask you think what is in common with a corkskrew, Sib 7, S- thing, dna-form, spiral galaxy, salsa basic step?

Have some more whisky, Harri.

Something to do with a helix? Interesting if Sib 7 has something in common with the motif from Heroes! (The TV programme, I mean.)

As for whisky: Harri, Arenan and other Finns (and tourists, natch): if you're ever in Kouvola check out Restaurant Olé. Their bottles of Famous Grouse are labelled 'Famous Olé'.

Andrew,

I know Sibbe enjoyed whisky...any insight into which brands in particular?

Whenever I have Johnnie Walker Red, I think of Churchill. That was his brand of choice.

Oh yes, on one of Sibbe's birthdays, Churchill sent the great composer cigars, yes?

I've heard (not verified but from a rather reliable source) that he was fond of Seagram's [Annoying for me if so, as it's not widely available here.]. But somewhere online or in a book I have seen some receipts from Ainola that mention other brands - I can't lay my hands on them now but I'll let you know if I do.

The Churchill / cigars is true !

Now I am sober again. I had this idea after someone telling seeing planets etc. while listening 7th.
7 is full of s-motif, or how you want to say, rolling impulse. I´d say, a musical spiral form. Spirals:

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I showed to my colleague a picture of a spiral galaxy. Immediatily he said that it is like a swastika. So, this helix form again everywhere.

More spirals:

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Kurki, how did you choose the fragment of the 7th when opening the forum? ( Maybe you allready told it, but I can`t find)

I found it as an already-edited, stand-alone sound clip. I have thought about changing it a few times but I don't have any software that will edit and cut long sound-files.

I'll see if I can remedy this, the clip from the 7th has been around for ... a ... long ... time.

I like it. There is an S-motif combined with a harmonic series.

I think, roughly saying, the use of harmonic series, which can be heard in horn parts in Viennese classical music, is a thing that makes difference between German music and Sibb, the melodies of whom are like from five stringed kantele.

I was on YouTube and came across a video of Esa-Pekka conducting S7 with the Swedish Radio Orchestra. There were several comments about the music and one, by a person calle "Mdenero" I thought was very interesting. I reproduce it here:

Yes, the greatest symphony of the 20th Century, and one of the greatest works of the 20th Century. Such a profound, moving work. It has always struck me as a musical evocation of a human life: From it's mysterious opening, through the growth and drama, the quiet subtlety, and the trials and tribulations. Then, finally, the wrenching conclusion, ultimately affirmative, searching and accepting. The final chord is like the soul being release from the body.

Tapkaara wrote:

The final chord is like the soul being release from the body.

This is an interesting observation. Curiously enough Sir Colin Davies has described the end as 'The closing of the coffin lid'. I think that Sibelius Seventh is very much a 'Birth to death' work. Small wonder that the master hinted at the Valse triste towards the end.-kp